Holden Local Manufacturing... GONE!! (Merged)

[fomoco]

How true is this:

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/578...holden-dealers

[Casper]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Here's a bit of light reading, which for the most part, backs up my theories on this issue. I guess it comes back to each individuals read of the way the industry has been run. Do we continue pouring money into this black hole?

Without exception every country one way or another subsidises their motor industry. Is there a good reason that Australia should not do the same?

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Casper

Without exception every country one way or another subsidises their motor industry. Is there a good reason that Australia should not do the same?

Maybe because it's not an Australian company, it's American.

Media reports this morning suggest that an announcement from GM Detroit is imminent.

[rik]

Originally Posted by Casper

Without exception every country one way or another subsidises their motor industry. Is there a good reason that Australia should not do the same?

Both sides of politics agree there should be subsidies…. the question is how much is required?

With production volumes falling, more money is needed to keep less jobs. There comes a point where the money is better spent elsewhere.

Originally Posted by bluesport

Media reports this morning suggest that an announcement from GM Detroit is imminent.

Don't think it will be in the next few days, as the Holden President just appeared in the Senate saying no decision had been made. There are penalties like a court for false or misleading evidence in the Senate.

[Matt]

I can see ending local production, but shutting down the whole brand is suicide.

Just run a fully imported lineup with Holden badges like they've been doing.

[RedZedMikey]

Originally Posted by Matt

I can see ending local production, but shutting down the whole brand is suicide.
Just run a fully imported lineup with Holden badges like they've been doing.

I agree that having the Holden nameplate disappear would not be a good thing. However, if GM were to pull out of local manufacture, I personally would not like to see Holdens being sold without a single locally made product. It's different with Ford, Nissan and Mitsubishi who have already or will soon depart the local manufacture scene, and Toyota, who I guess are waiting to see what GM do. Their brand names are global; Holden is not - it's Australian. The Holden nameplate without a single local product and with all the factory workers given the boot is somehow just a lie.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by rik

Both sides of politics agree there should be subsidies…. the question is how much is required?

With production volumes falling, more money is needed to keep less jobs. There comes a point where the money is better spent elsewhere.



Don't think it will be in the next few days, as the Holden President just appeared in the Senate saying no decision had been made. There are penalties like a court for false or misleading evidence in the Senate.

McRabbit has decided the zero is the right figure. he has worked out that subsidising low import tariffs is better than putting money into a local manufacturer. I think he failed maths at high school.

[Razor]

2017 Holden is out, confirmed.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Razor

2017 Holden is out, confirmed.

Technically they arent 'out', instead doing what Nissan and Mitsubishi have already done , and Ford is about to do, transitioning from a local car manufacturer to a full importer.

Its clearly a mess. But an ineviable one

[Matt]

So the brand will still exist in name, just nothing built there, if I'm reading that right?

[Casper]

When is the next election, if Toyota pull the pin then the feds might live to regret this. You can bet money that the spin doctors are weaving a tale of regret on one hand and blaming GMH and the Australian car buyers on the other. They would never admit fault, McRabbit has never been wrong in his entire life just like every other politician.

Notice the irrevocable part of the statement in case the government came back with a better offer, they are saying that as the deal they wanted was not forthcoming then the Feds can live with the result.

No more Ozzie utes which is a shame, the Falcodore is neither here not there really as no amount of money on the table will make people buy something they don't want and the companies never produced what the market came to want.

[Langers]

My personal view that that Toyota are now finished as well. Supply chain cannot maintain economies of scale without 2 manufacturers.

[mountainstar]

Well I am very sad because that is the end of uniquely Australian cars and once the industry goes, it likely will not be back.

But I do understand Ford and GM as private companies and their situation. What got them into trouble before and nearly destroyed their own existence in 2008 was inefficiency and hanging onto unprofitable endeavors that lost money year after year. They can't sustain that any further.

The Australian dollar is a big part of it and Australia is one of the world's most expensive countries to operate in with the cost of real estate, taxes and wages, so for a manufacturing business it's hard to sustain.

I'm sure Toyota's announcement will not be far away.

[porsche91722]

From a strictly historic perspective, it is a sad day, but definitely not unexpected. If you worked in auto manufacturing or associated industries over the last decade or so and didn't see the writing on the wall, you have been in a state of denial. Yes..... terrible for the workers, families etc but it has now happened. It didn't help, that their management were continuously peddling BS to all and sundry. Not sure if you can blame Abbott and Co. If Labor was still in power, do you really think Holden would still be manufacturing here? GM have been, and still are, on the nose, especially after their indiscretions in the U.S. It's not a good look! Their image does not endear itself to anyone, particularly governments and taxpayers, when it comes to coughing up subsidies, again and again. At the end of the day, they produced cars that fewer people were interested in. Cars that nobody wanted to buy, other than fleet buyers. People who know more about the industry than me have made these comments.
Aside from this, you can bet that there will be one hell of an internal witch hunt, to find out who leaked the news early. I am sure they would have preferred to do this on their own terms rather than, having to put out the bushfires, now raging out of control.

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Well I am very sad because that is the end of uniquely Australian cars and once the industry goes, it likely will not be back.

But I do understand Ford and GM as private companies and their situation. What got them into trouble before and nearly destroyed their own existence in 2008 was inefficiency and hanging onto unprofitable endeavors that lost money year after year. They can't sustain that any further.

The Australian dollar is a big part of it and Australia is one of the world's most expensive countries to operate in with the cost of real estate, taxes and wages, so for a manufacturing business it's hard to sustain.

I'm sure Toyota's announcement will not be far away.

NAH, what got them into trouble was a simple as this, Yanks have no idea of Australia, We had good products but we were always signed off by Yanks. We in Australia, did not try and buy every manufacturer around the globe:
Vauxhall
Chev
Pontiac
Opel
Holden
Dawoe
and shares in every other thing going
etc

and then manage to screw it up, nah Australians have design engineers and component manufacturers slightly ahead.
Here's one car Detroit never OKed,


Torana GTR-X[edit]

GTR-XOverviewProductionInitially 1970 (3 Bodies built but never released)Body and chassisBody stylecoupéLayoutFR layoutPowertrainEngine186 in³ / 3.0L I6
253 in³ / 4.2L V8
The Torana GTR-X was designed during the era of the LC series, and was seriously considered for production in the early 1970s. The GTR-X had a wedge-shaped fibreglass body featuring a hatchback rear access, and the prototype cars had LC Torana GTR XU-1 mechanical components.
The GTR-X looks similar to iconic sports cars of the 1970s, such as the Ferrari 308 GT4, Lotus Esprit and the Mazda RX-7. It weighed 1,043 kg (2,299 lb) and has a top speed of 210 km/h (130 mph). The Torana GTR-X in production would have been the first Holden car to be factory fitted with four-wheel disc brakes.
When Holden released a promotional brochure about the GTR-X, they said ... "Its long, sleek hood is accentuated by a low wedge-shaped grille. The body line sweeps up at the rear to an elevated tail light assembly. Simplicity is the keynote. It is achieved by concealed headlights, sharp windshield rake, recessed parking and turning lights, and flush petrol filler access and door handles. Front and rear bumpers assume the contour of the body. To identify the car, the GTR-X identification is contained within a crisp black and orange stripe running parallel to the rocker panel".
The Torana GTR-X was highly developed by Holden from concept, and even though brochures, photography and promotional films were produced to show how serious they were in putting the car into production, the company was ultimately unable to justify the high cost of committing itself to production given the size of the Australian population in those days.
The only existing complete prototype GTR-X car has been recently restored back to its original white paint finish and remains on public display at the Salmon Street offices of Holden in Melbourne, Victoria. This car, originally white as pictured, was painted silver in the mid 70's. It had UC Torana SL/E wheels fitted and a couple of other cosmetic changes (bonnet badge etc.) in an attempt by Holden to move the car with the times and "restore it". During this period it toured motor museums including the Birdwood museum in South Australia. In 2003 the car was returned to its original build condition (white) by Car Shine in Melbourne, prior to being shipped to the US to the General Motors Technical Center at Michigan for the celebration of automotive design spanning the past 75 years. Just to prove Aussie can do
Yep, Down Under again.

If you wonder why I have a hatred of Yanks, I did my apprenticeship at Holden and some Yank , Chuck Chapman , tried to tell us how North America runs car making , two different countries, two vastly different climates

But never trust a Company controlled but Americans

[Matt]

Nice to know I'm hated for no reason!

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by Matt

Nice to know I'm hated for no reason!

Nah Matt, just as long as you don't have a role in Ford or General Motors, on the Board or a Vice President of Pencil Sharpening

I do have a lot of American friends who love Australia, and our proud of the heritage of Automotive history, First Coupe Ute , etc, Jack Brabham, and more, just the gutless men of Detroit, who don't know a good thing. and will come out with some bullshit , We loved Holden , (but we killed the torana GTR X, THe Manaro, the ute, and every holden exported had to be rebadged Chev, (that's an insult to Australian Automotive Engineering)
That's what gets me ****ed, yet GW Bullshit said there was weapons of mass destruction, I think ppl around the world are sick of American business and Govt dictating what the hell goes on, not the every day people of God Dam God bless America, as the guys and girls from Indy and Champ, and IRl , said we love coming to Australia, to get away from the bullshiser

[fomoco]

PEOPLE PPL PPL PPL PPL PPL PPL PPL

Follow the bouncing ball: Read and digest , and re read before getting onto high horses, open your mind on politics and party alliance

Holden's assemble carriages in Adelaide, to replace the Horse and Cart

They import products from America , namely a Company name General Motors. ( A group of car makers brought out to form one organisation)

THe Fed Govt of Aust wants an Australian built Car:

THe holden is born, but mind you,:
The Holden 48-215, also known unofficially as the Holden FX is a mid-size, six-cylinder sedan which was produced by the Australian automaker, General Motors–Holden's Ltd between November 1948 and October 1953. The 48-215 was the first model from General Motors–Holden's to bear the Holden name.[2]
The design was originally penned in the United States by Chevrolet,[3] but was not used because it was deemed too small for the U.S. market as it developed after the war. Instead the design became the basis of only the 48-215 model. Development of the 48-215 began in 1944.

Three prototypes were built by hand in 1946 by American and Australian engineers at the General Motors workshop in Detroit. Months of durability and performance testing were undergone in the US before the three prototypes were shipped to Australia. Prototype number one was first registered (as a Chevrolet) in Victoria as JP-480 on February 12, 1947.[4] The only survivor of the prototypes, it is part of the National Museum of Australia collection.
A further two prototypes were built in Australia; all five prototypes were registered as Chevrolets. Only two were used for photographic purposes. They were:[4]

• Prototype No.1, JP-480, dark colour—Seine Blue (not Cadillac Blue)
• Prototype No.4, KY-442, light colour—Convoy Grey, owned by Australian businessman Peter Briggs between 1980-2013. The car's current value has been estimated to be worth over A$1 Million when it was put up for auction in the Motorclassica auction Melbourne, in October 2013[5]

In the absence of an established supplier base in Australia for auto-making, new forging facilities had to be set up for producing crankshafts and a new foundry was set up for major castings.[6] In order to hasten the project to production some simplifications were incorporated.[6] There were no direction indicators, there was no provision for heating or demisting, and at the rear there was only a single, centrally positioned, tail lamp.[6] Because of the mild climate in most of the populated areas of the country, it was found possible to save weight and cost by using a relatively small 6-volt 11-plate battery.[6] Interior trim was minimised: weight reduction was pursued "with great vigour" and, in view of the 2247 pound (1020 kg) weight in "running trim", a success.[6]


So even from the get go, USA USA USA had a hand and crontrol of what was to become the beloved car for the Country.

And so the story begins, after the war, and depression, we had great growth, a few droughts, but we managed. During the fifty's and sixties we fell in love with Holden and the new Ford Falcon, another reject from North America .

Similar story, Chev didn't want it, Ford didn't seem interested

(foot note: Did you know that Ford came to Aust via Cananda as the Govt of the day was playing politics with Mother England and there was no sort of trade thingy with USA)
So we roll along to the late sixties and seventies. The imports racing around, the first real Ausie muscle car the XR GT , 289 high Performance, soon followed by another GT, the Monaro.
And so the scene was set,, but what a lot of Aussie didn't realise, each model had to signed off by Detroit.

This is perhaps why the HD Holden is referred to Hastily Designed, or the AU Falcon as Absolutely Useless.

There was some bad designs, and some good, and some that never seen the light of day.
But all along, USA decided on what Australians would have.

When General Motor's Holden (as they were known as ) brought out the Opel and modified it to suit AU conditions, it was to be the best thing ever, now known as a Commodore(not the computer at a similar time)

(But did you know, that the Germans came out and seen the improvements and took them back)

So following on from the Torana, the Commy took over Bathurst, miss you Pete.

But in the end , now this is where it gets interesting to leave your political persuasion out of logic.

Since the seventies: Fed govt and state govt have supported Manufacturing, tax relief, etc tec

For those that can remember Senator Button did a review of the car industry, Ford GM Holden, Chrysler, in the seventies. (same results as today basically)

Every Holden exported was rebadged Chevrolet

Ford didn't really go into export, **** XYGTHO would have been awesome

Chrysler- well they just were happy in South Aust


Now as we moved into the new world, as Messrs Hawke, Keating and Howard told us, we have to start trading a bit more. In return the Fed govt allowed a lot of protections of our industries to go.

Now before you fly off and blame Lab/Lib, they also had to increase our exports, from many other industries, so a trade off was always on the cards. At least other industries could sell Australian products, but not GM North America, it was Chevy.

So we entered the new millennium, and we all thought that Ford and Holden would be with us for years. Well when you sell a handful of cars and the Govt (LIB/LAB) set out Free trade agreements , then there is not much hope left, and when the average wage in Thailand is a bag of rice and bottle of water , can you really compete?

(Did you know the free trade agreement with USA had restrictions on the number of cars Australia could export to USA , but they could dump as much crap on us as they wanted too?)

So in the end, two bit politicians ,stupid union officials waffling crap over the media blaming everyone else, causing angst among Australian Family's, instead of saying, alright, that's it.

**** of now, nationalise the industry, Govt, Unions, Component Manufactures take over the buildings, anyone not in alliance with Australia, first plane out of here, start making our own Med sedan, Suv, and ute.

Tell Ford and GM to say hello one day, or put up with imported ****.

Many years ago and young up and coming Labour politician told a gathering of workers a Ford, buy shares in the company and have a control. pity they didn't listen, but then again Bob Hawke was climbing the ladder

[mountainstar]

Fomoco, instead of rumbling on blaming America for all your problems, Australian's had ample opportunity to either start their own car company out or buy out Holden or Ford or even previously some of the other car making operations in the country. For the one finger you have pointed at us you have three pointed back at you.

The Abbott Government has chosen not to take it further as it is calculated that it would cost a whopping $300 million a year through 2025 to keep car manufacturing afloat in Australia. Not sustainable.

[JHamilton]

I don't have any knowledgeable insight into this, however as a proud owner of an imported Holden this makes me very sad. My two favorite brands are gone.

[Racenut]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Fomoco, instead of rumbling on blaming America for all your problems, Australian's had ample opportunity to either start their own car company out or buy out Holden or Ford or even previously some of the other car making operations in the country. For the one finger you have pointed at us you have three pointed back at you.

The Abbott Government has chosen not to take it further as it is calculated that it would cost a whopping $300 million a year through 2025 to keep car manufacturing afloat in Australia. Not sustainable.

It will be interesting to see if there is any form of management buy out, whether any of them think it can be made to work.

I believe car manufacturing can work but we need to produce cars that people want to buy, not just in Australia but around the world. If Holden and Ford built cars such as Camaro and Mustang which by US standards are small volumes, but big in Oz we would have a better chance to keep production up near the max which will improve efficiency.

As a tax payer I would support the Government assisting a management buyout, but instead of just giving handouts the Government could take shares in the company. The Us Government did that with GM when they bailed them out, they have now sold all those shares and as far as I know recouped all of the money invested. To me its a win-win

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Racenut

It will be interesting to see if there is any form of management buy out, whether any of them think it can be made to work.

I believe car manufacturing can work but we need to produce cars that people want to buy, not just in Australia but around the world. If Holden and Ford built cars such as Camaro and Mustang which by US standards are small volumes, but big in Oz we would have a better chance to keep production up near the max which will improve efficiency.

As a tax payer I would support the Government assisting a management buyout, but instead of just giving handouts the Government could take shares in the company. The Us Government did that with GM when they bailed them out, they have now sold all those shares and as far as I know recouped all of the money invested. To me its a win-win

There isn't a thing from stopping the capital investment market from either buying in or starting their own deal. Eliminating Ford and GM bureaucrats might streamline things.

It's convenient for people to always blame Americans, but people really need to police their own backyard and put their money where their mouth is.

Also the US government did not recoup all it's money, it cost us billions, I think about $10 billion it cost the US taxpayer now that the guvment has sold it's shares, which I'm not convinced was a great deal for what we got.

I think actually you need to keep government out. The more the government meddles, the more it artificially twists economics. Government is a poor business partner because it doesn't know a damn thing about business or making a profit.

[peckstar]

Ford and Holden together they are Folden

[Casper]

Looking at things in retrospect is always done by those who know better than everyone else. There is a long history of brands that manufactured here or Ozzie companies that assembled here CKD and they are all gone. BTW the XY (any model) was a S******X of a car and lucky it was not exported as it would have done untold damage to the Ozzie motor industry. What is the saying, Rose coloured glasses??

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Casper

Looking at things in retrospect is always done by those who know better than everyone else. There is a long history of brands that manufactured here or Ozzie companies that assembled here CKD and they are all gone. BTW the XY (any model) was a S******X of a car and lucky it was not exported as it would have done untold damage to the Ozzie motor industry. What is the saying, Rose coloured glasses??

How is a 1972 vintage XY Falcon relevant to the discussion?