Karts on a Hillclimb???

[Keith M Taylor]

Ok i used to run a Maguire Mini in sprints and hill climbs, my mechanic was a guy by the name of James Ebdon, who in-between sorting my car, also ran a Motus Kart with a Bultaco 250 single in the 500 class at Prescott Hill climbs, the reason he got around the rules was that the Motus had suspension, sort of (rubber doughnuts) bit like early minis, and a long Wing on the back and also front wing, some thing to do with the 500 class, length requirement rules...now this caused a load of controversy and was sooooooooo fast up the hill!!! The other 500 cars were Jap500 V twins and a fare bit slower....so i think the Motus was banned....but i do remember another car/kart/spacframe? came along, with a screeeeming snowmobile engine in it.....was it a Konig sp engine? call age concern! i can`t remember much more at the moment, must be the medication....but will post if i remember any more.

[ghinzani]

Was the Konig the thing with 6 wheels Keith?

[davyboy]

The 'snowmobile engine' was probably a Rotax 256. BRP Rotax were famous for making snowmobile's, which is probably where the confusion originated. However the 256 was a purpose designed 250cc twin cylinder [tandem configuration] watercooled Superkart motor which was ubiquitous in that class through most of the 1980s and 1990s. It developed a huge amount of power and was used by a number of 'kart-esq' drivers on hillclimbs.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Keith M Taylor

....but i do remember another car/kart/spacframe? came along, with a screeeeming snowmobile engine in it.....was it a Konig sp engine? call age concern! i can`t remember much more at the moment, must be the medication....but will post if i remember any more.

Were you maybe thinking of Peter Voigt and his Voigt-Renwick special... that ran a 500cc Konig (outboard?) engine, water cooled IIRC. The car was hugely fast, but it caused major controversy and upsets.

Peter (who was something eccentric like a classical musical instrument maker... violins ring a bell.... well they dont but you know what I mean ) entered it in the up to 500cc racing car class..... where all of it's opposition was the traditional 1950's F3 Cooper-Jap type 500cc racing cars. Peter rocked up in this purpose built modern but tiny racecar with much more power, enormous revs, better brakes, full wishbone suspension, and of course later technology and wider (IIRC Slick) rubber.

He simply obliterated record after record in the car, by several seconds. Thus the controversy and upset establishment, who claimed it 'not in the spirit of the regulations'. The answer ultimately was to create an entirely new class for the car and others who were inspired by it to create similar cars.... namely 'Modern Single seat Racing cars >500cc' leaving the traditional 'Historic 500cc Class' for cars of the Cooper variety.

Peter Voigt Voigt-Renwick Special


Which brings me to the other issue of the Trackstar type of creation...

The new modern 500cc class started a bit of a surge to similar bike / outboard engined type of cars and also kart type devices with suspension, one called the Trackstar (yellow 'car' pictured here in original 4 wheel spec)

The MSA, clearly not as attuned to 'looking outside the 9 dots' as the creators of the kart-cars, thought they could cleverly get rid of ALL karts from speed events by simply introducing an additional regulation for Speed Events which put a MINIMUM wheelbase on ALL Racing Car and Sports Libre classes. So Phil Jefferies asked the MSA to clarify the definition of wheelbase. This MSA definition stated that 'wheelbase was the distance from the centre line of the front wheels to the centre line of the rear wheels'.

Hence the little little trailer that Phil attached to the back of the Trackstar, which not only made it like a mini-bendy-bus, but met the definition of the wheelbase ruling! They got away with this because the MSA did not specify that the measurement should be to the centre of the rear DRIVEN wheels!

Another was a guy called Karl Scollar with a Spectre, powered by engines from a CBR600 up to a 900cc engine. (Black 6 wheeler pictured)

The wheelbase definition was soon (for the next year I think) amended and rendered many of them ineligible. I think some (certainly the Spectre,) ran in later years at Shelsley Walsh in the 'Shelsley Special' class.

Some piccies of the cars to which I referred....

Trackstar-Phil-Jeffries-Shelsley


Trackstar Wiscombe1988


Karl Schollar-6wheelSpectre.


Hope this helps clarify the situation a little. I was a competitor in another class when Peter Voigts creation first appeared, and remember it well. Peter subsequently moved up to the big single seater class, driving a Techcraft Buick, 3500cc V8.

Chris Anderson.

[ghinzani]

Chris thats spot on!
Still wish they would let us take TAG karts to hillclimbs though - Gurston told me it was to do with MSA regs around the height of the barriers that prevented us from running.

[E.B]

@Ghinzani, noticing your location in the South West, you should give Wiscombe Park at Colyton, near Exeter, a crack..... Mind you, its a venue that requires huge amounts of 'testicular fortitude' if you are fully committed enough to do a quick time.

The size of the 'accoutrements' required to do an on the limit run in anything resembling a kart would need a strengthened chassis to take the weight of the neccessary sized 'mansbits' to be honest.

It is also an excellent venue to spectate as well.

An onboard clip of Wiscombe

As you will have seen in that clip, it is the last place you want to be venturing from the black bit in anything, let alone a kart. Bordering the track there are some very solid banks, trees and other very unforgiving areas that you will encounter, and the speeds are deceptively fast. .

As Rob Turnbull found out a few years ago with this big accident at the hairpin

This is just a few seconds of Robs crash from another angle and really highlights the speed. Quite scary actually. Other than being a bit winded and shocked, Rob was totally unhurt by the way.

Mind you even Gurston has some places you really dont want to go off. Imagine the off in the following clip if you did not have a carbon fibre survival cell, and were in your chosen relatively unprotected kart. This is in the wet and at a much lower speed than would normally be the case in the dry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFKZzpVFjBE

I wrote elsewhere on the forum of when I had a huge scare on that bend, thanks to an over zealous scrutineer when my throttle jammed open but I chose the escape road rather than trying to make the turn.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by E.B

Other than being a bit winded and shocked, Rob was totally unhurt by the way.

Well, apart from the broken leg, that is. Tibia, I think.

Karl Scholar is still going strong in the Spectre, officially recognised as a Shelsley Special and while I admire him and his adventure with the vehicle, I can't say I like it very much. I'll forgive him because he's such a nice man. Other than that, as a marshal I really have no wish to see Karts on a hillclimb, and I'm no fan of bikes either for pretty much the same reason.

[eboman58]

PEOPLE EITHER LOVED OR HATED KARTS ON HILLCLIMBS .DEPENDING ON HOW MUCH MONEY THEY HAD SPENT ON THE RACING MACHINERY AND HOW FAST THEY WERE GOING . I ENJOYED MY TIME WITH MY MOTUS AT PRESCOTT AND GURSTON .IT WAS THE ONLY WAY I COULD HILLCLIMB ON A SHOESTRING BUDGET AT THE TIME . RAC AT THE TIME BANNED THEM BECAUSE OF SAFETY STILL HAVE A LETTER FROM EASON GIBSON TOP CHEESE AT THE TIME . THE KONIG SIX WHEELER WAS BUILT BY TIM CAMERON AND WAS VERY QUICK . HALF KART HALF CAR HE WAS GIVEN A HARD TIME AND I THINK GAVE UP THE PROJECT IN THE END . GOOD TO HERE YOU STILL GOING STRONG KEITH . JAMES

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Well, apart from the broken leg, that is. Tibia, I think.

Karl Scholar is still going strong in the Spectre, officially recognised as a Shelsley Special and while I admire him and his adventure with the vehicle, I can't say I like it very much. I'll forgive him because he's such a nice man. Other than that, as a marshal I really have no wish to see Karts on a hillclimb, and I'm no fan of bikes either for pretty much the same reason.

ooops re Rob Turnbull, my statement was based on an 'eyewitness' comment that said they saw him walking about half an hour later!

From what I have now discovered (in another thread here at TT) he did indeed suffer an injury in the accident, a fractured ankle, although he did actually return to Wiscombe that evening, albeit with his ankle in plaster. Apologies for the error.

None the less I think that even Rob would agree that given the size ans speed of the impact that he was fortunate to not have been more seriously injured, and no doubt thankful for the obvious strength and integrity of the Gould tub / survival cell which did a brilliant job holding up to the impact and protecting Rob from further more serious injuries.

To be honest I really think that karts and certainly hills with minimal run off areas would be best not combined if only from the safety issue. The drivers are very exposed and with the karts now running sleek bodywork, meeting with a crash barrier at the wrong angle and perhaps the kart sliding underneath / between the barriers is a thought I would not like to contemplate. The video of Rob's Wiscombe crash should offer all explanations as to why not.

As for motor bikes I must admit that I always disliked running at meetings that cover both categories. No disrespect to our two and three wheeled (sidecar) compatriots but for the size of engine they seem to leave an awful lot of oil around on the track which obviously is a danger to all competitors and indeed marshalls.

The nature of motor bikes, their riders lack of restraint, not to mention being terribly exposed to barriers and the solid and unforgiving local scenery, and places such as Wiscombe although they do indeed already run bikes at combined events clearly are potential death traps and venue closers should serious injury result to competitor marshall or spectator. My two cents

Once more apologies to anyone misled by my incorrect statement as to Rob Turnbull's injury, or lack off. Glad nonetheless, to see that he did indeed make a speedy and full recovery from his fracture.

[Keith M Taylor]

Firstly this forum is the dogs bits, one post about my old mate and mechanic and bingo.....had a PM from him....30 years since last contact....blimy

Originally Posted by ghinzani

Was the Konig the thing with 6 wheels Keith?

The answer to the Konig is given by eboman58
"THE KONIG SIX WHEELER WAS BUILT BY TIM CAMERON AND WAS VERY QUICK . HALF KART HALF CAR HE WAS GIVEN A HARD TIME AND I THINK GAVE UP THE PROJECT IN THE END"

Originally Posted by davyboy

The 'snowmobile engine' was probably a Rotax 256. BRP Rotax were famous for making snowmobile's, which is probably where the confusion originated. However the 256 was a purpose designed 250cc twin cylinder [tandem configuration] watercooled Superkart motor which was ubiquitous in that class through most of the 1980s and 1990s. It developed a huge amount of power and was used by a number of 'kart-esq' drivers on hillclimbs.

No, no confusion davvboy...i used to run in 250 International with a Yam TD3 ac motor with the likes of Nigel Mansel, Calvin Fish, Doug Bond, Martin Hines of ZIP Karts, we then went on to the Rotax in-line twins wc motors...never had much success, had more fun with a 250 barton Suzuki that was super quick but ran out of spares...oh come on James (eboman58) you always had great knowledge on motor sport, especially on Prescott!
Please forgive me if i get any of this wrong....its been a long time.

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by E.B

@Ghinzani, noticing your location in the South West, you should give Wiscombe Park at Colyton, near Exeter, a crack..... Mind you, its a venue that requires huge amounts of 'testicular fortitude' if you are fully committed enough to do a quick time.

.

Yeah been there and spectated - I dont think they would let a kart run mind... but on the backburner is a project to build a hillclimb bike, so you never know.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by E.B

Once more apologies to anyone misled by my incorrect statement as to Rob Turnbull's injury, or lack off. Glad nonetheless, to see that he did indeed make a speedy and full recovery from his fracture.

No worries, I know Rob well and it took quite a long time to heal fully, but he's back to his normal self now. He was quick to acknowledge the car did a magnificent job of protecting him from greater harm.

Re karts, it's not just barriers. There's hedges, walls, banks, significant drops and a heap of other infrastructure you wouldn't want to hit. To be honest, you wouldn't get me in a single seater on most hillclimbs, never mind a tea tray capable of doing a ton up.

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Re karts, it's not just barriers. There's hedges, walls, banks, significant drops and a heap of other infrastructure you wouldn't want to hit. To be honest, you wouldn't get me in a single seater on most hillclimbs, never mind a tea tray capable of doing a ton up.

Agree to a point, but its no more than the bike boys face.

[Keith M Taylor]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Re karts, it's not just barriers. There's hedges, walls, banks, significant drops and a heap of other infrastructure you wouldn't want to hit. To be honest, you wouldn't get me in a single seater on most hillclimbs, never mind a tea tray capable of doing a ton up.

As do a lot of long tracks, i remember Karts hitting catch fencing at Silverstone...and going under the armco.....a good friend hit the straw bales that were tight against the armco coming out of woodcote at 155mph at the Kart GP...my point is we were invincible at that age!
Under the dunlop bridge down Starkey`s at Donington @160mph watching the front tyres shrink off the rims....you aint lived Woolley
PS would i do it now......given my health back.....damn right. ;-P
Just my mumblings.

[ghinzani]

Theres still plenty of kart tracks like that now - I went off on one a few years ago, went thru some tyres, a fence and thence into a small tree. Lost a couple of places too.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by ghinzani

Agree to a point, but its no more than the bike boys face.

Not keen on bikes either. The majority of air ambulance call outs we've had at Shelsley have been for bikes. Considering the ratio of bikes to cars, that's really not good, and not nice for us to deal with either.

Originally Posted by Keith M Taylor

As do a lot of long tracks

You tend to have had to go a long way off before you hit something though, at least these days.

Originally Posted by ghinzani

Theres still plenty of kart tracks like that now - I went off on one a few years ago, went thru some tyres, a fence and thence into a small tree. Lost a couple of places too.

LOL. I sense the last sentence is the most important consideration. In a phrase it sums up everything I like and don't like about karts at the same time.

[Keith M Taylor]

Originally Posted by Woolley

You tend to have had to go a long way off before you hit something though, at least these days.

At 150 plus it all seems to come up just as fast! 8-) but as you suggest, my racing days go back to the late 70`s We were braver, harder, more skilled, oh i nearly forgot........... more stupid then! and also so...so... much FUN!

[E.B]

Originally Posted by ghinzani

I went off on one a few years ago, went thru some tyres, a fence and thence into a small tree. Lost a couple of places too.

Lol... I must have jumped ahead reading that as in my mind I had replaced 'places' with 'teeth'

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by E.B

Lol... I must have jumped ahead reading that as in my mind I had replaced 'places' with 'teeth'

Teeth would not have been an issue...

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Not keen on bikes either. The majority of air ambulance call outs we've had at Shelsley have been for bikes. Considering the ratio of bikes to cars, that's really not good, and not nice for us to deal with either.


You tend to have had to go a long way off before you hit something though, at least these days.


LOL. I sense the last sentence is the most important consideration. In a phrase it sums up everything I like and don't like about karts at the same time.

We are boneheads? I think we feel safer than bikers cos we are in a nice padded armchair..