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Old 8 Jul 2015, 12:55 (Ref:3556745)   #51
john ruston
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Blockleys do not work on Talbots!

Don't know about lesser cars.
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Old 9 Jul 2015, 07:41 (Ref:3556929)   #52
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This is James Bailey from Dunlop. I'd posted a similar reply to this on a related thread last month, but I'd like to give an update, and some context.

We were forced to relocate our historic tyre production facility in 2014 after our landlord took the decision to sell the site for redevelopment.

This was the only location where the CR65 tyre was made.

Moving tyre production is a very lengthy process, and therefore we knew we would have a period of nearly 12 months where we would not make any CR65 tyres.

Therefore, we had to rely on doing an accurate forecast, and build an inventory to this forecast before moving. Forecasting historic racing grid sizes a year ahead is not easy, and we forecasted some championships better than others.....

I'm very conscious of our obligations and grateful for the loyalty - and we are acutely aware that some of you don't have a choice of supplier due to regulations and I understand the frustrations and inconvenience caused by having to source or reuse tyres from other teams and drivers. However, we entered into this relocation because we are committed to servicing the historic racing market for the long term and we do appreciate your patience.

This year, we have made several thousand CR65 tyres and the situation is improving daily. However, the 'pent-up' demand is such that we are working flat out to get to a normal situation. I'm not going to answer questions on specific sizes on here because the situation is improving at such a rate that my answer will be out of date by the time many read it. Instead, our dealers have done a superb job in managing inventory and supply and they should be the point of contact for accurate information in this ever-improving situation.


I hope that this context helps and I apologise for a situation which will continue to improve. I'll address the comments on product performance in my next post.
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Old 9 Jul 2015, 07:54 (Ref:3556931)   #53
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I'd like to respond to an earlier question about differences in performance.

We have restarted production using the original moulds, specification and compound. There is no difference to the specification.

Historic tyres have a very different, largely handmade, manufacturing process to modern tyres and it was important for us to ensure that we retained the same performance and consistency. Dunlop Motorsport is part of the Goodyear group and we have strict 'global manufacturing standards' including regular audits to ensure we have consistency , irrespective of the location.

Occasionally, we change specifications due to myriad reasons such as manufacturing regulations or EC directives on use of chemicals. Whenever we do this, we test and rehomologate the tyre to ensure that we keep the tyre performance as close to the 1950s/1960 period spec as possible.

Ironically, with the availability of more modern materials, it would be far easier to upgrade the performance of the CR65 than keep it at the same level!

This relocation has been a huge undertaking for us and our goal is to do it perfectly.
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Old 9 Jul 2015, 08:24 (Ref:3556937)   #54
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Thank you James. As far as I am concerned you have been very frank and I appreciate your posts.
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Old 9 Jul 2015, 08:37 (Ref:3556941)   #55
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James.
A very detailed answer. thanks for taking time out to provide this detail I appreciate that moving production will not have been an easy task.
Cheers
Neil.
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Old 9 Jul 2015, 10:20 (Ref:3556951)   #56
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Many thanks for addressing our comments and concerns. It's appreciated. Best wishes, Robert
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Old 9 Jul 2015, 11:41 (Ref:3556968)   #57
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I disagree
both answers from Dunlop today are neither frank nor open.

They largely consist of typical empty "management speak" such as "huge undertaking" and "commited" or just repeat facts that are either known or indisputable.

If one knows how to read between lines, some parts of the statement have me more worried than ever before.

From my point of view
- taking into account that Dunlop are "working flat out" against "pent up demand" at what approximate date do they expect to be back to a normal supply situation ?
and I dont mean individual tire sizes but the big picture
putting it simpler: when will the full range be available again ?

- what is Dunlops comment on the quality problems that some of us feel to have encountered ?
for instance tires not beeing truly round enough ?
data ?
what are the self imposed tolerances for roundness ?
mentioning an internal quality audit and standard system is a total non answer because that is a given in todays manufacturing world
what would be helpfull is to set up a contact adress for us to voice our quality problems, NOW THAT WOULD BE TRUELY REACHING OUT TO US RACERS,
and btw complaints handling procudure AND FOLLOW UP AND CORRECTIVE MEASURES TAKEN FROM (veryfied) COMPLAINTS are one of the central cores of every quality management system
again we are talking about a monopoly here, so either legally or morally the monopolist should make sure that his consumers in bondage are at least happy with the product they have to buy
tires are a safety item
ahh, and: productions with a large part of manual manufacture tend to suffer from quality problems in the run up phase due to lack of training and experience,
same can happen again after holydays or when workers are changed
especially between modern automated productions and older type manual production that they might have less aptitude for
buuuut: in my industry you have account for that with preemptive training and in process controls, no batch released until fault free......... but i only make food.......

regarding the buffer stock for the changeover period
estimating the demand to the best of Your knowledge is one thing
in fact this is only the starting point
the question is then how much of a safety factor You then build into such an estimate, at least for part of the range
off the cuff, 200 % for some less important sizes would have been my preference, even before I look at specifics such as productions cycle lengths,
and yes, I am aware of the implications of tying up money in stocks.

will there be buffer stocks in future for every size ?
thus making sure that the monopolist can really guarrantee supply ?
that is the really important question looking ahead

just some thoughts from somebody who has bit of experience in manufacturing.....

ahhh: and before the answer comes that all what i mentions costs money......
id personally rather pay a fair price and get a top quality product with a reasonable lead time than pay less for variable quality and unsure supply

R.E.
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Old 9 Jul 2015, 14:35 (Ref:3557001)   #58
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Rudernst, If you send a DM with your phone number, I can call you to discuss your concerns.
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Old 9 Jul 2015, 14:40 (Ref:3557002)   #59
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Rudernst, If you send a DM with your phone number, I can call you to discuss your concerns.
why not do this here in the open ??

R.E.
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Old 9 Jul 2015, 19:56 (Ref:3557092)   #60
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Old 9 Jul 2015, 23:55 (Ref:3557148)   #61
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So the tyre's specification has and will change again. Thanks for the Ron speak clarification.

Hopefully the next specification change will deliver a durability increase, a noticeable reduction in cost for the consumer and roundness.
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Old 10 Jul 2015, 00:31 (Ref:3557157)   #62
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James, I understand that the process for making CR65s is much more labour intensive than modern tyres and is not an automated process. Given that this is the case and your assertion that the specification is identical how many of the workforce have you transferred from Birmingham to Portugal to ensure continuity and quality control? All, some or none? When can we expect a reduction in price given that the labour costs there are substantially lower?

BTW I am not the only one (apart from Rufi) to have found the new Portuguese CR65 tyres are not as good, whatever you may say about specification.
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Old 10 Jul 2015, 10:07 (Ref:3557261)   #63
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...We were forced to relocate our historic tyre production facility in 2014 after our landlord took the decision to sell the site for redevelopment....
I fail to see how the landlord selling the site forced relocation to Portugal. Were there no other suitable sites available in the Birmingham area? If production had stayed in the same area would the relocation have not been a lot easier, especially as key staff could have been retained?
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Old 10 Jul 2015, 11:09 (Ref:3557271)   #64
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I still think there should be competition for supply. It's the monopoly that's led to this problem.
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Old 10 Jul 2015, 12:34 (Ref:3557284)   #65
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I fail to see how the landlord selling the site forced relocation to Portugal. Were there no other suitable sites available in the Birmingham area? If production had stayed in the same area would the relocation have not been a lot easier, especially as key staff could have been retained?
For example the Goodyear Plant down the road at Wolverhampton which is now up for closure. Sounds more like a large scale plan to remove all production from the UK.

And don't expect any reduction in cost due to cheaper manufacturing as that will be offset by the increased transport costs.

Pete Richards
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Old 10 Jul 2015, 17:10 (Ref:3557353)   #66
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For example the Goodyear Plant down the road at Wolverhampton which is now up for closure. Sounds more like a large scale plan to remove all production from the UK.

And don't expect any reduction in cost due to cheaper manufacturing as that will be offset by the increased transport costs.

Pete Richards
We, the British tax payer have probably financed the move.

Search for how Ford Transit production was moved overseas at our expense.
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Old 10 Jul 2015, 18:16 (Ref:3557372)   #67
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It's a cock up!!

19 "" wheels are due at end of year.

Going to start looking for alternatives.

May find rally tyres but what to do for racing?
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Old 10 Jul 2015, 20:52 (Ref:3557406)   #68
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We, the British tax payer have probably financed the move.

Search for how Ford Transit production was moved overseas at our expense.
Looking at the timings of decisions and how production ramped-up markedly nearly 4 years ago JLR have perhaps been used as a handy scapegoat.

Nevertheless, that's not the discussion here.

I've heard people moan about quality "not being as it was" for a few seasons now. The number of heat cycles you can get out of them seems to be fewer and they don't seem to work in the same way - but I hasten to add that is just anecdotal and pit lane chatter.

I recognise that CR65s are the period tyre and therefore suit older car's suspension, I'm all for that. However, when I used CR6ZZs for the first time this season I found them more progressive (and they made noise; very useful when you're an oaf like me and you've locked up, Dunlops don't make a murmer) in comparison with the Dunlops I've been using in the past 2 seasons.

Again, probably just me talking garbage, but I'm sure the CR65s I had from 2009-2011 were more fun and more linear in the wet.
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Old 10 Jul 2015, 21:22 (Ref:3557411)   #69
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One could argue about the quality, another about the distribution and many about the construction and handling of the tyre compared to more modern ones but essentially, the Dunlop CR65 remains and I hope will remain the only approved tyre for proper Appendix K racing.

The benefit of tyre supplier being put into competition could help the distribution and improve the quality, of course but another factor to take into account is the competition between them which could have the opposite effect of what you are seeking.

If any of you have experienced the old Michelin TB15 tyre years ago when Michelin was mostly the sole supplier and have compared it with the equivalent it is producing today, of course they are better but since Pirelli has come into this market, the benefit and improvement in compound as well as distribution has had the worst effect possible. Cost have gone up. Now the tyres are historic threaded pattern build with modern technology and compound and the result is for example, with the Tour de Corse, the top crews using up to 2 sets of tyres a day and 7 compounds being available on the market, you can only make the difference in mastering that. It has upset a lot of people in rallying as cost have gone stratospheric..! It can be compared with the championship using the Yoko or Toyo, of course they are better and cheaper but on a long term base, you spend more in buying tyres all the time. That's not what we want in an historic racing world getting more and more expensive..... Do we ?

Having recently managed a championship using the CR6ZZ on Pre-66' Appendix K cars, of course, there were no differences except for particular cars, when the people used to hammering the CR65 would show up, no differences or yes, they were faster. A more consistent tyre on long distance as the CR6ZZ proves very good at the start but tend to fade very quicky and more in hot conditions... Better compound...

The CR6ZZ with lower sidewalls, radial construction and better compound only proved to be harder on the cars with some chassis parts or suspension braking regularly... The average drivers performance was better as well as "wet races" conditions improved but a big problem was again, the cost, a complete set would only last a single weekend. The few who were using the CR65 proved to use their tyres on a minimum of a "long distance" weekend plus a "sprint" one.

Last, the CR65 does respect the design and handling the cars deserve and thats's what should be kept in mind. The sourcing and manufacturing has always been a problem and more for the continentals, cases of bad sets or complete lots of tyres have always been part of it, I remember looking after a Chevron at the 'Classic some 8 years ago and they were already square ! But when taken back to Dunlop they did change them and the car improved.

Keep calm and carry on
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Old 10 Jul 2015, 21:51 (Ref:3557415)   #70
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Reintroduce Engleberts!
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Old 11 Jul 2015, 05:49 (Ref:3557468)   #71
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One could argue about the quality, another about the distribution and many about the construction and handling of the tyre compared to more modern ones but essentially, the Dunlop CR65 remains and I hope will remain the only approved tyre for proper Appendix K racing.

The benefit of tyre supplier being put into competition could help the distribution and improve the quality, of course but another factor to take into account is the competition between them which could have the opposite effect of what you are seeking.

If any of you have experienced the old Michelin TB15 tyre years ago when Michelin was mostly the sole supplier and have compared it with the equivalent it is producing today, of course they are better but since Pirelli has come into this market, the benefit and improvement in compound as well as distribution has had the worst effect possible. Cost have gone up. Now the tyres are historic threaded pattern build with modern technology and compound and the result is for example, with the Tour de Corse, the top crews using up to 2 sets of tyres a day and 7 compounds being available on the market, you can only make the difference in mastering that. It has upset a lot of people in rallying as cost have gone stratospheric..! It can be compared with the championship using the Yoko or Toyo, of course they are better and cheaper but on a long term base, you spend more in buying tyres all the time. That's not what we want in an historic racing world getting more and more expensive..... Do we ?

Having recently managed a championship using the CR6ZZ on Pre-66' Appendix K cars, of course, there were no differences except for particular cars, when the people used to hammering the CR65 would show up, no differences or yes, they were faster. A more consistent tyre on long distance as the CR6ZZ proves very good at the start but tend to fade very quicky and more in hot conditions... Better compound...

The CR6ZZ with lower sidewalls, radial construction and better compound only proved to be harder on the cars with some chassis parts or suspension braking regularly... The average drivers performance was better as well as "wet races" conditions improved but a big problem was again, the cost, a complete set would only last a single weekend. The few who were using the CR65 proved to use their tyres on a minimum of a "long distance" weekend plus a "sprint" one.

Last, the CR65 does respect the design and handling the cars deserve and thats's what should be kept in mind. The sourcing and manufacturing has always been a problem and more for the continentals, cases of bad sets or complete lots of tyres have always been part of it, I remember looking after a Chevron at the 'Classic some 8 years ago and they were already square ! But when taken back to Dunlop they did change them and the car improved.

Keep calm and carry on
Fair answers Louis and I always enjoyed CR65s until recently. There seems to be a recent (3 yrs) change and I just hope they go back to how they were.

One question - why do they allow Avons to be run on the Nordschleife if it's declared a wet race??
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Old 11 Jul 2015, 07:21 (Ref:3557480)   #72
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I want Dunlops, rounds, consistent and £100 each maximum please and I'll use 6 a year.

THey curently cost 20% more than my Subarus 17" elastic bands and they get tortured daily and last 3 years.
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Old 11 Jul 2015, 07:48 (Ref:3557486)   #73
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Think its always been the case with "FIA" type races Simon.B in the wet around here is errrm, very interesting, perhaps try it one day But its because ZZs are way superior in the rain.
Good post Louis, and yes the TB15s / were/still are a very good tyre.Slightly more expensive but consistent to previous batches.
Portuguese labour=cheap and probably unskilled=poor quality.
Quite simple really, lobby the FIA to allow other makers into the fold.
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Old 11 Jul 2015, 09:39 (Ref:3557507)   #74
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Is it time to look for alternative suppliers? A monopoly is not good for both supply and cost. rallying has bene opened up a lot in recent years and tyre costs droped dramatically.
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Old 11 Jul 2015, 11:04 (Ref:3557524)   #75
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Regarding the use of CR6ZZ at the Nordschleife Marathon race or for the 6 Hours, I think it's more about the events being used to very mixed conditions and ensuring the safety of the entries more or less.

On tyre manufacturers competition, I forgot to add something. Looking at the market of historic tyres, surely it looks big from an insider point of view but looking at the facilities, specific equipment, and all the fabrication process as well as cost of putting all that together, I think it's fair to say that it doesn't look as interesting as you would think for the suppliers. The market is in reality very tiny compared to modern motorsport for the people sitting in the high offices and so is the interest they have for it...
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