[Team] Mercedes to scale down F1 involvement?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by luke g28

From what I read Renault were using red bull to promote the infinti brand as they want to expand it across europe.

Well, Nissan actually has the Infiniti brand under its wing, but yeah, Renault won't mind that.

Originally Posted by luke g28

Or we could go with your usual theme "nobody sells f1 cars to the public, its all doomed"

A slight case of 'strawman' there. But, generally speaking, manufacturers tend to jump ship when their car sales are taking a dive or they think that F1 has served its purpose. But Mercedes must be looking at what BMW and Audi are currently up to, and thinking to themselves 'We can't afford to drag the good name of Mercedes through this crap for much longer'.

Originally Posted by Bononi

My ex-wife used to have a Ford Zetec powered car back in the mid 90s...

Was that before or after Schumacher used the last V8 Zetec to win his first title? After that year they were used in the Saubers for 95, and such as Forti, Pacific and Simtek used another version of the V8.

Ford still labels its cars and engines as 'Zetec' here in the UK. Pretty sure that most people that buy them, don't know of its link to F1.

Originally Posted by S14

If they could be used thus, maybe there would be a more direct F1-to-road-car connection that the various manufacturers could use to move metal.

There was a time when the in-line four cylinder turbo engine was going to be the FIAs 'Global' engine. Probably not the case now, though.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I hardly think that McLaren are as successful as Mercedes would have liked them to be. After all, it was Brawn that won Mercedes their last Constructors and Drivers championships. Not since 1998 has McLaren won a constructors championship with Mercedes engines. 1999 would have been their last drivers championship, but good fortune shone (sorry) on the team and its driver, nearly a decade later.

Hardly getting your money's worth, IMO.

Mercedes will probably fair just as well with a powertrain that they are pretty sure is a world beater and exclusively used in its cars.

But it could all be just posturing for a bigger slice of the pie. We shall see.

The correlation between race wins and marketing windfall is a general one it isn't an absolute equation. Hamilton, whatever we students of the sport may make of his performances in detail or at a given snapshot in time, is projected to the outer world as a young winning championship top gun. Mercedes with the elderly Schumacher and the undermarketed Rosberg look absurd by comparison. This is particularly ridiculous as Mercedes are trying to get away from their old stereotype of building cars for rich old executives. It's only the residual power that the Schumacher name has in the German national pysche that this arrangement has been going as long as it has; sooner or later it's going to hit home at Merc HQ that the rest of Europe is laughing at them.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

The correlation between race wins and marketing windfall is a general one it isn't an absolute equation. Hamilton, whatever we students of the sport may make of his performances in detail or at a given snapshot in time, is projected to the outer world as a young winning championship top gun. Mercedes with the elderly Schumacher and the undermarketed Rosberg look absurd by comparison. This is particularly ridiculous as Mercedes are trying to get away from their old stereotype of building cars for rich old executives. It's only the residual power that the Schumacher name has in the German national pysche that this arrangement has been going as long as it has; sooner or later it's going to hit home at Merc HQ that the rest of Europe is laughing at them.

And who was the fastest qualifier at the greatest driver's circuit they visit - Monaco?

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by wnut

And who was the fastest qualifier at the greatest driver's circuit they visit - Monaco?

Schumacher and yet my remarks are just as true.

[fredd1]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I hardly think that McLaren are as successful as Mercedes would have liked them to be. After all, it was Brawn that won Mercedes their last Constructors and Drivers championships. Not since 1998 has McLaren won a constructors championship with Mercedes engines. 1999 would have been their last drivers championship, but good fortune shone (sorry) on the team and its driver, nearly a decade later.

Hardly getting your money's worth, IMO.

Mercedes will probably fair just as well with a powertrain that they are pretty sure is a world beater and exclusively used in its cars.

But it could all be just posturing for a bigger slice of the pie. We shall see.

You may be right but save for the Brawn fluke, who else has consistently kept the Merc name up front?

[chillibowl]

they overestimated MS comeback and expected more consistency from Nico (although they have hardly been let down by either driver imo) but with that driver pairing i dont believe that they had loftier goals then the occasional podium and hopefully a win or two during this first three year stint.

unless of course they had unreasonable expectations, but for me anyways, its seems like its been a rather successful reintroduction.

personally i hope that 'scaling back their involvement' is about more decisions coming from Brackley and less input from Stuttgart. after all Brawn achieved its success after Honda stopped calling the shots...factory involvement is a mixed bag at best.

on a side note i dont see Brawn's win as a fluke. sure there was some clever rule interpretations but that happens every year. the 2008 Honda was a dog so the decision was made to pour Honda's considerable resources into the 2009 challenger very early. almost as if they were going to spend two years worth of budgets on it and fully get to grips with the new regs. certainly they spent more time developing it and its possible more money was spent on it compared to any one else that year.

edit: forgot to add that Button and Barri had a great years too.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

The correlation between race wins and marketing windfall is a general one it isn't an absolute equation. Hamilton, whatever we students of the sport may make of his performances in detail or at a given snapshot in time, is projected to the outer world as a young winning championship top gun. Mercedes with the elderly Schumacher and the undermarketed Rosberg look absurd by comparison. This is particularly ridiculous as Mercedes are trying to get away from their old stereotype of building cars for rich old executives. It's only the residual power that the Schumacher name has in the German national pysche that this arrangement has been going as long as it has; sooner or later it's going to hit home at Merc HQ that the rest of Europe is laughing at them.

I don't think so. A few points here :

o Anyone who understands enough about F1 would know that since Mercedes' recent involvement as a team, no current driver would have managed to drag the MB car to a significant number of wins, let alone a world championship. The cars have just not been good enough.

o Michael Schumacher is one of the few names in F1 today that is known worldwide. The marketing yield that Mercedes have managed to glean from his association with the team is far greater than they could have achieved with anyone else in the car. He is a brand in himself and could sell more Mercedes worldwide than Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and everyone else on the grid put together.

o If Schumacher is going to call it a day at the end of this season, MB are acutely aware that going forward the value of the F1 team to them will be so dramatically diminished that it's questionable whether it's worth continuing.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by davyboy

If Schumacher is going to call it a day at the end of this season, MB are acutely aware that going forward the value of the F1 team to them will be so dramatically diminished that it's questionable whether it's worth continuing.

Schumacher's decision to stay on for another season is the key to who comes and goes in other F1 teams. Not least of those is McLaren's own Lewis Hamilton.

Maybe, like Honda did, they'll sell the team to Brawn for a very small fee, with the provision that it uses the 'AMG' brand name in order to get an exclusive supply of 'AMG' engines for 2013/2014>.

That may be an interesting combination. Brawn, Hamilton, AMG, and AMG badged Mercedes engines.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I don't think so. A few points here :

o Anyone who understands enough about F1 would know that since Mercedes' recent involvement as a team, no current driver would have managed to drag the MB car to a significant number of wins, let alone a world championship. The cars have just not been good enough.

For the purposes of this thread I'm primarily discussing his image in the mass-market and not whether his performances bear the scrutiny of experts and afficianados. As an afficianado I rate his comeback effort fairly highly, btw. I've often stressed this and from a personal POV he can feel himself fully vindicated for his return.

o Michael Schumacher is one of the few names in F1 today that is known worldwide. The marketing yield that Mercedes have managed to glean from his association with the team is far greater than they could have achieved with anyone else in the car. He is a brand in himself and could sell more Mercedes worldwide than Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel and everyone else on the grid put together.

Very wrong in regards to Hambo. In marketing terms, Hamilton, would be far better. Only if Schumacher was consistently winning would he be the marketing gem. Behold, the Schumacher brand - winning. It's not charisma, a Hunt-esque ability to party day and night, it's winning and winning through clinical professionalism. Involved in a mass of incidents, misfortunes, spins and coming home 'in sixth place' or whatever he is a parody of his giant-killing self. The market won't wash even the legitimate excuses for his problems, whether this is via his own fault, his team, age or a combination or none of the above, it doesn't matter, his marketing worth is now diminished due to the successes of his first professional incarnation. In short, outside of Germany, a beleaguered Schumacher is a damp squib for Mercedes in marketing terms.

Hamilton on the otherhand is everywhere on the high-street, he's young, his young glamour dolly-bird packs the column inches, he's visible as a stylish addition to the social scene, he 'just' wins enough to be still regarded as the 'rising man', in other words he's a marketing gem. Welcome to the grubby world of mass-culture.

If Schumacher is going to call it a day at the end of this season, MB are acutely aware that going forward the value of the F1 team to them will be so dramatically diminished that it's questionable whether it's worth continuing.

MB would be diminished in Germany if MS jacked it in *possibly* but that's about it. Mercedes inability to win consistently and their inability to market themselves and their drivers properly will spell doom for this team.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Very wrong in regards to Hambo. In marketing terms, Hamilton, would be far better. Only if Schumacher was consistently winning would he be the marketing gem. Behold, the Schumacher brand - winning. It's not charisma, a Hunt-esque ability to party day and night, it's winning and winning through clinical professionalism. Involved in a mass of incidents, misfortunes, spins and coming home 'in sixth place' or whatever he is a parody of his giant-killing self. The market won't wash even the legitimate excuses for his problems, whether this is via his own fault, his team, age or a combination or none of the above, it doesn't matter, his marketing worth is now diminished due to the successes of his first professional incarnation. In short, outside of Germany, a beleaguered Schumacher is a damp squib for Mercedes in marketing terms.

Hamilton on the otherhand is everywhere on the high-street, he's young, his young glamour dolly-bird packs the column inches, he's visible as a stylish addition to the social scene, he 'just' wins enough to be still regarded as the 'rising man', in other words he's a marketing gem. Welcome to the grubby world of mass-culture.

MB would be diminished in Germany if MS jacked it in *possibly* but that's about it. Mercedes inability to win consistently and their inability to market themselves and their drivers properly will spell doom for this team.

Nope... I think you're a million miles wide of the mark here. Schumacher is known by a lot more 'lay people' worldwide than Hamilton. In time it's possible that Hamilton may become more prolific and more known, but that's not the case yet. No way is Schumacher seen as a damp squib everywhere outside Germany and his marketing value is far from worthless. Don't forget, most people are not welded to F1 the we are... and most people are not resident in Britain/Ireland as we are. A sports person's aura, particularly the aura of a legend like Schumacher, carries far more than just his recent results. Schumacher's 'connection' with Mercedes has gleaned them more in global mass marketing terms, and sales to the Merc demographic, than Hamilton could have.

I believe that Schumacher's partnership with Mercedes played a big part in their entry as a team... and his departure will play a big part in their decision on whether to remain.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Nope... I think you're a million miles wide of the mark here. Schumacher is known by a lot more 'lay people' worldwide than Hamilton. In time it's possible that Hamilton may become more prolific and more known, but that's not the case yet. No way is Schumacher seen as a damp squib everywhere outside Germany and his marketing value is far from worthless. Don't forget, most people are not welded to F1 the we are... and most people are not resident in Britain/Ireland as we are. A sports person's aura, particularly the aura of a legend like Schumacher, carries far more than just his recent results. Schumacher's 'connection' with Mercedes has gleaned them more in global mass marketing terms, and sales to the Merc demographic, than Hamilton could have.

I believe that Schumacher's partnership with Mercedes played a big part in their entry as a team... and his departure will play a big part in their decision on whether to remain.

You must be trolling me now, LOL! Hamilton is very visible on the high street, within the international media and is circulated within mainstream publications outside of trade circles. That singer girl friend has also significantly internationalised him and vodafone has made perfect and very visible use of him. Even in Spain they've successfully projected him as a cheeky rascal.

The decision by Mercedes to enter was not contingent on Schumacher signing up for them and they'll leave because they've spent so-much, have won little and their marketing efforts have been underwhelming. It won't be related to Michael Schumacher because their marketing relationship has not been a success. Simply being 'known' is insufficient, they are known for their underwhelming relationship.

Schumacher publicly failing to live up to the high standards of excellence that Schumacher himself set will inevitably create an aura of disappointment amongst the unforgiving mass-market that watched his comeback very carefully. This is particularly so as Mercedes faces strong criticism over their performance and speculation about Schumacher's second retirement has been bubbling ever since the 2nd quarter of his first year back. This is a limp marketing formula in any language. It's really astonishing anyone could describe it as anything else!

[Adam43]

"Significantly internationalised", sounds painful.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

You must be trolling me now, LOL! Hamilton is very visible on the high street, within the international media and is circulated within mainstream publications outside of trade circles. That singer girl friend has also significantly internationalised him and vodafone has made perfect and very visible use of him. Even in Spain they've successfully projected him as a cheeky rascal.

The decision by Mercedes to enter was not contingent on Schumacher signing up for them and they'll leave because they've spent so-much, have won little and their marketing efforts have been underwhelming. It won't be related to Michael Schumacher because their marketing relationship has not been a success. Simply being 'known' is insufficient, they are known for their underwhelming relationship.

Schumacher publicly failing to live up to the high standards of excellence that Schumacher himself set will inevitably create an aura of disappointment amongst the unforgiving mass-market that watched his comeback very carefully. This is particularly so as Mercedes faces strong criticism over their performance and speculation about Schumacher's second retirement has been bubbling ever since the 2nd quarter of his first year back. This is a limp marketing formula in any language. It's really astonishing anyone could describe it as anything else!

This is even further from reality than your earlier post... I'd describe it as 'significantly internalised' which is definitely painful

[FAS33]

Schumacher all the way, hes a legend and anything his names on , will sell. ask anyone around here about lewis hamilton.. and they'll go, "Lewis who?" But Schumacher , that name everyone knows and alot of people know don't even follow motoracing! and would also recognise him as the best F1 driver of all time. hence why hed be more of a successful marketing choice. and hamilton has a bad rep here too, he likes to let loose on ours roads Lolz

[Greem]

I think you could successfully argue that MS and LH have completely different target demographics when it comes to advertising.

Hamilton, shades, crazy beard trimming and uber-tall girlfriend are very clearly different from a bloke in his 40s wearing silly stetsons, leather chaps and embroidered shirts. I'm struggling to see much of a crossover between the two!

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by davyboy

This is even further from reality than your earlier post... I'd describe it as 'significantly internalised' which is definitely painful

Struggling, elderly Schumacher who struggles to finishes in the top 6, in the pits or spun off on the track is somehow a marketing winner for Mercedes by your estimation? And I'm the one far from reality?



I just pity the poor sod who hires you as their marketing guy.

[chillibowl]

according to Forbes Shcumi is ranked 20th with a salary/winnings of 20mil plus 10mil in endorsements.

http://www.forbes.com/profile/michael-schumacher/

again from Forbes LH is ranked 24th with a salary of 25mil with only 3mil coming from endorsements.

http://www.forbes.com/profile/lewis-hamilton/

it also says that outside of Reebok, Mclaren controls LH's sponsorship rights.

to me this suggests that LH's salary covers his sponsor commitments which makes him a very well paid driver (but still less overall than MS). MS on the other hand seems to have more freedom in inking his own deals (and possibly had some of these prior to joining Merc) which suggests to me that he is a brand unto himself.

maybe this changes in LH's current contract talks and we will see an explosion of LH sponsorship deals but for that to happen he needs another WDC...or 6 more to get to MS's level.

all that said they appeal to different demographics. if i have a car to sell i get MS. if i have sneakers and watches i get LH....hence why MS' future might factor more in regards to Merc's F1 plans because its certainly not about his pace.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Greem

I think you could successfully argue that MS and LH have completely different target demographics when it comes to advertising.

Hamilton, shades, crazy beard trimming and uber-tall girlfriend are very clearly different from a bloke in his 40s wearing silly stetsons, leather chaps and embroidered shirts. I'm struggling to see much of a crossover between the two!

TGF doesn't have earrings either.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Adam43

TGF doesn't have earrings either.

Certainly not on the side of caution, that is a fact!

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Adam43

TGF doesn't have earrings either.

That would be funny if he had.

[Marbot]

Ah Ahh!



Genuine Michael Schumacher earring! Surely he must have tested it before allowing it to go into production? In that way that only German people seem to do.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Ah Ahh!



Genuine Michael Schumacher earring! Surely he must have tested it before allowing it to go into production? In that way that only German people seem to do.

Yep... he had it fitted as a 'Prince Albert'... I'm reliably told

[Bononi]

Ouch...

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Yep... he had it fitted as a 'Prince Albert'... I'm reliably told

Why did I read that whilst drinking tea! All over the blooming keyboard ...