Crowd sizes - how reliable are figures?

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

The WTCC only gets crowd sizes of 25,000-50,000 on a regular basis and that is a pretty big popular series and one that people know.

50,000 on a regular basis?
The WTCC gets 50,000 on a very good day. And 5,000 on a bad one.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by sceptic

50,000 on a regular basis?
The WTCC gets 50,000 on a very good day. And 5,000 on a bad one.

Incorrect, see this link for official figures for the 2004 FIA ETCC. http://www.fiatouringcars.com/2k4/de...d=2&pagsize=8# The WTCC as we know is the same as the ETCC, the same cars, the same teams, the same drivers and most of the same manufacturers and the same organisation. The only real differnces between the 2 series is the FIA WTCC gets bigger crowds than the ETCC ever did and that theres a couple of new venues and a couple of new manufacturers. The WTCC is bigger than the ETCC was in 2004.

As you can see the smallest attendance for the ETCC in 2004 was 10,000. Take the overall average from the numbers on the link above and the average attendances were around 40,000. This year the championship is bigger and is attracting lots more interest worldwide and spectator numbers are also growing.

Anyway, back to the original topic...

[Roninho]

The 40.000 average is heavily inflated by the spa 24hrs race in which the etcc was a support race. Since we are talking 'bout the financials: Hard to make enough money for a big serie like etcc/wtcc if your a support race.
And 50.000 on a regular bases seems a bit far stretched according to the pdf file. Without Spa the average was 29.875, with only 1 race over 50.000 (magny cours).

[sceptic]

And Magny-Cours only got that in 2003: in 2004 it got only 22,000 - though that was still higher than average for 2004.

The lowest incidentally was Valencia with just seven thousand.

And remember that these figures are for the weekend: Anybody who bought a three day pass will have been counted three times!

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Roninho

The 40.000 average is heavily inflated by the spa 24hrs race in which the etcc was a support race. Since we are talking 'bout the financials: Hard to make enough money for a big serie like etcc/wtcc if your a support race.
And 50.000 on a regular bases seems a bit far stretched according to the pdf file. Without Spa the average was 29.875, with only 1 race over 50.000 (magny cours).

Yes but you seem to be forgetting that these were figures posted in 2004. Not 2005 when Chevrolet and Ford joined the series which did help boost crowd attendances signifcantly. And yes I am fully aware that the ETCC/WTCC had big crowds at Spa because of the Spa 24hrs but a lot of the people there were there for both the ETCC/WTCC and the Spa 24hrs. Spa attracts big crowds for a lot of series and im certain that the WTCC would have attracted 50,000+ alone without the Spa 24hrs running alongside it. Just take a look at how big the crowds were for the DTM, another big touring car series which attracted huge crowds.

2005 attendances were up on 2004 at every venue I beleive thanks mainly to the series WTCC status and thanks to the fact that Chevrolet and Ford joined the series with works teams. See this article for more information. Ive said my piece on this matter now and will comment no further in relation to this before we stray even further off topic.

[Zandbak]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Spa attracts big crowds for a lot of series and im certain that the WTCC would have attracted 50,000+ alone without the Spa 24hrs running alongside it. Just take a look at how big the crowds were for the DTM, another big touring car series which attracted huge crowds.

Do you call (paying)10.000 visitors at Spa DTM a huge crowd?

About the crowds during the WTCC, the majoity of the people arrive on saturday afternoon

But back to the A1GP financial troubles, any news on that?

[ss_collins]

RIght talking of crowd numbers - you actually believe those saleen? I'd be higly suprised if thay were not inflated by quite a margin to make the series look better.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

RIght talking of crowd numbers - you actually believe those saleen? I'd be higly suprised if thay were not inflated by quite a margin to make the series look better.

Yes I do beleive those numbers, SRO are not in the business of misleading people. If you dont beleive them though that of course is your right, the FIA GT championship however is a big series with a large following around the world and certainly doesent need to mislead its fans. If series like A1 can get 70,000 people through the gates on race day I see no reason as to why a big established series like the FIA GT championship cannot do the same.

But then we are getting a little off topic so I'll say no more on this topic.

[bella]

i agree with sam on the crowd figures. these things tend to involve free tickets, passes, the whole weekend, anyone who happened to drive within 10miles of the venue at any point in the previous week etc etc. ok, so that's an exaggeration, but like with any statistics, you have to get the full details of how the numbers were put together. like the governments definition of "unemployed" changes, and how studies involving a small sample are discounted immediately, without a firm definition of "crowd", you can't really use the figures.

they're for bullpooping the sponsors, not for defending a series

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by bella

the article also now confirms that

i agree with sam on the crowd figures. these things tend to involve free tickets, passes, the whole weekend, anyone who happened to drive within 10miles of the venue at any point in the previous week etc etc.

True free tickets are handed out to thousands of people in FIA GT, but thats also the case for the BTCC,WSBR,BGT/F3 (John Guest) and many other series out there. Anyway, the fact that free tickets are given out amongst the various motorsport series IMO doesent really matter. The crowds still came for the events, whether it was free entry or not. As most of us here know, free tickets are one thing but when you get free tickets to say FIA GT at Donnington Park and you live in the South for example the event is far from free, you still have to pay for camping/hotel as well as fuel. The tickets in comparissan to the fuel costs camping/hotel costs is relativly small.

[bella]

most people just go for one day. fuel would be say, £10 for 100 miles, so that's a fairly big radius around a track. a ticket for a big event is £25-30.

it's nit-picking but that doesn't stand up either.

[SALEEN S7R]

You must have a very economical car Bella. For me Donnington is about a 350 mile round trip, thats 1 tank of fuel and that is £50. £10 of fuel in most cars will get you around 50 miles in say a 1.6-.2.0ltr petrol (unless its a diesel or a very small petrol car, a normal 1.6-.20ltr family hatchbacks are signifcantly worse on petrol) I say again, the tickets are merely incentives - the real cost for a lot of people is signifcantly more than £10 in fuel. If as you say most people go for race day that is a pretty expensive day out I think you will agree.

[bella]

my car isn't particularly economic. for a family of 4 the tickets would add up to £100. even with food, and your frankly overexpensive £50 tank for 350 miles, food still wouldn't be £50.

whatever way you look at it, your arguement doesn't stand.

[SALEEN S7R]

Bella, yes it does. Depending on how many of you are going, I normally go by myself and meet up with friends when Im at the track, sometimes I go with my brother in law too, if we both went to a BGT/F3 meeting it would cost around £20-£30 for the tickets at most, nearer to £20 if going just for Sunday. Food would cost £10-£15 between us for the day also, on top of a tank of fuel that adds up to £65. At the end of the day though much of the cost depends on what you are watching and at what venue. For 1 or 2 people my arguement does stand up, families perhaps not, but then from my experince you get relativly few families at race meetings in comparissan to adults. £50 expensive for a tank of fuel that lasts only 350 miles? I guess its not a cheap car to run, but its not the most expensive in the world either, its what you get for having a sportscar.

[Asp]

This has been snipped across from a thread in A1GP. So apologies for strange posts also mentioning A1GP, but it's a good debate so it's best it gets coverage in a more appropriate forum. Carry on

[Asp]

OK Saleen, your argument is that free tickets still have an important consideration. I wouldn't completely disagree with this - they'd rather go to the circuit then shopping, or do the gardenning. It shows they have at least some interest. But it still costing £65? If you organise it properly as a family day out, you take a picnic and eat it whilst the GTs are racing. That cost doesn't equate, because the family would still have to eat at home, so so can't add that to the cost of the day out.
The only cost is petrol. Yes, petrol is expensive - but do many people really drive a £50tank full to get to a circuit and back? That's another factor when people are considering are going. Just in terms of driving time, it's a long time - and as most people only go for one day, people just won't consider it. They'll stay at home and watch "Last of the Summer Wine" instead. So, whilst there still is an expense involved in taking up an offer of a free ticket, I can't imagine in 99% of cases it's anywhere near the £65 you quote.

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

You must have a very economical car Bella. For me Donnington is about a 350 mile round trip, thats 1 tank of fuel and that is £50. £10 of fuel in most cars will get you around 50 miles in say a 1.6-.2.0ltr petrol (unless its a diesel or a very small petrol car, a normal 1.6-.20ltr family hatchbacks are signifcantly worse on petrol) I say again, the tickets are merely incentives - the real cost for a lot of people is signifcantly more than £10 in fuel. If as you say most people go for race day that is a pretty expensive day out I think you will agree.

Most cars will do about 100 miles to £10 now, I used to have a 1.9td, I could easily get 650 miles out of £50 worth of fuel, but now I got a 2 litre turbo petrol and am luky to get 300 miles on £60!!
Oh, and Marshal, makes tickets quite a bit cheaper!!!

[bella]

it's not financially viable to own a car that does less than 100 miles to £10, unless you're a company director type or have a fuel card. my car's a 2 litre turbo diesel and it's not considered the best on fuel, i think most petrol "family"/"image" cars do around the same fuel figures as my diesel, and if they don't, they're helped along their way by the relative cheapness of petrol compared to diesel.

it costs me £50 to get to *france* and back, and i live nearly smack in the middle of the country...!

[SALEEN S7R]

Well my Toyota Supra 3.0ltr turbo does around 18-22mpg around town depending on how heavy the traffic is, and how heavy your right foot is. On a motorway run you can get around 37mpg if you do a steady 60-70mph. Its defintely more at home on the motorway than town driving, in a town I'll get maybe 270-300 miles, on a motorway run anything up to 400. My dads 2003 Vauxhall vectra 2.2sri with 145bhp for example averages around 26-28mpg per tank of fuel according to the cars engine management system.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

Most cars will do about 100 miles to £10 now, I used to have a 1.9td, I could easily get 650 miles out of £50 worth of fuel, but now I got a 2 litre turbo petrol and am luky to get 300 miles on £60!!
Oh, and Marshal, makes tickets quite a bit cheaper!!!

Ah yes, but how far would £10 get the car you drive now? Its worth remembering that a big percentage of the crowd that goes to motorsport events drive relatively powerful cars, Im not talking Ferrari's etc, but top of the range Vectras, Mondeos, Laguna's, Impreza's etc - all of which are hungry on fuel. I know that doesent apply to everyone, but it does to a lot of people. Ive got quite a few friends in the motorsport world and most of them tend to go for 4 door saloons/hatchback's - but they tend to be at the higher performance end of the model rather than the more base line models.

[bella]

excuse me, my car's quite sporty. i'm just not stupid enough to throw money away on fuel when mileage to races adds up to something like 1000 miles a month at the least...!

nitpicking aside, you're still not justifying your arguement. just because you drive an expensive to keep car doesn't mean that everyone does.

and actually, there was an awful lot of "normal" cars at the renault world series at donington, which was completely free ticket wise.

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Ah yes, but how far would £10 get the car you drive now? Its worth remembering that a big percentage of the crowd that goes to motorsport events drive relatively powerful cars, Im not talking Ferrari's etc, but top of the range Vectras, Mondeos, Laguna's, Impreza's etc - all of which are hungry on fuel. I know that doesent apply to everyone, but it does to a lot of people. Ive got quite a few friends in the motorsport world and most of them tend to go for 4 door saloons/hatchback's - but they tend to be at the higher performance end of the model rather than the more base line models.

Well if they drive that car surely they are more able to afford to run it? So the issue goes away, surely?

[SALEEN S7R]

Oh but I am justifying my arguement Bella, the majority of friends that I have that like motorsport tend to drive sporty cars rather than the bog standard model that most of the population use therefore increasing fuel costs to get to and from the races as opposed to the people who use the more standard model of car and therefore have better fuel consumption.

So Bella, because I drive a car that is not as economical as the average person I am stupid? Not really, I just happen to prefer sporty cars as opposed to the average every day run of the mill cars. My car isnt particulary expensive to maintain either, only fuel consumption. Its a sportscar but its not a Ferrari or Corvette, parts arent massively expensive.

Also if you read my posts before I did say "Its worth remembering that a big percentage of the crowd that goes to motorsport events drive relatively powerful cars, Im not talking Ferrari's etc, but top of the range Vectras, Mondeos, Laguna's, Impreza's etc - all of which are hungry on fuel. I know that doesent apply to everyone, but it does to a lot of people." I didnt say everyone who goes to race meetings drives high performance cars.

Like it or not, for me and a lot of my friends that go to race meetings fuel normally costs more than the tickets actually do depending on which venue you are attending of course, myself and my friends tend to have cars that are the same model cars that you see every day on the road but are the sports version of that model and are therefore fairly thirsty on fuel.

Still, theres no point in continuing this debate, I have made my postition clear and I have the facts to back up what I am saying.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

Well if they drive that car surely they are more able to afford to run it? So the issue goes away, surely?

Differnt people spend their money on differnt things Ian. A lot of people spend £20 a week on ciggaretes and or beer, thats £80 a month that someone else who doesent smoke could use for say fuel or car insurance.

[Ian Sowman]

Indeed. But the cost of fuel and fuel economy is one of the things one factors in when choosing which car to buy, for any normal rational person.