Is Button good for McLaren?

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by ace007

I have to admit that I do miss Ron...

Ron at his peak was a great team boss.

By the end, though, I felt he was contributing to the destruction of his team. Whitmarsh is good at his job, but a lot of good people have left before he took the reins. Ron's obsession with team structure led to Newey taking a hike for instance, a pretty big loss. He also utterly mishandled the Hamilton/Alonso thing, as well as Spygate.

I did like Ron though, never really got the hate although I appreciate he could be somewhat annoying.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ace007

I have to admit that I do miss Ron...

They've not been the same since Whitmarsh took over. Just look at how Hamilton has flourished since moving to Mercedes, while McLaren has just stagnated. Whitmarsh is an affable guy, with a great engineering background but he's no businessman and he strikes me as rather worthy.

[ace007]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

They've not been the same since Whitmarsh took over. Just look at how Hamilton has flourished since moving to Mercedes, while McLaren has just stagnated. Whitmarsh is an affable guy, with a great engineering background but he's no businessman and he strikes me as rather worthy.

Agreed. Too nice perhaps is the word?

[sparkione]

I agree that it was a perfect situation when Lewis was there - someone who is absolutely in the top 3 on raw pace, as it gave McLaren a fair barometer on exactly where the car is.

That still holds good – they know Lewis had a tenth or two on Button, but generally no more, and that wouldn't move this year's car much further up the grid. Lewis might have got in the top five a time or two, but not on the podium.

Button v. Perez? Much as I'd expect – they're even so far in qualy (never JB's strong suit), but Jense is comfortably ahead on points. He's an experienced, astute racer, much valued by the team – and much liked, too. Alonso? Which 'senior McLaren man' was quoted this week as saying of Ferdy "Absolutely brilliant racer, but a complete *******!"

No, McLaren's problems this year aren't in the cockpit. They're everywhere else. The car's a shed, period, and they've given up on it. Roll on 2014.

[m355y]

Personal opinion - Perez has been crap this season. He's shown the odd flash of speed and tenacity in wheel to wheel battle, but 18 points? 18?? He constantly seems to be involved in the midfield battle, but by the end of the race he seems to have fallen to the back of the group. He's been the opposite of last season.

I think he was hugely flattered by a potentially multiple race winning Sauber last season that made both him and Kobayashi look better than they probably were.

I'm not sure he's done much that screams "RETAIN ME" to McLaren.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by ace007

I have to admit that I do miss Ron...

I don't. He's a control freak and a hypocrite.

[Adam43]

Nah, just a chuff.
Not in a bad way, IMHO.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Nah, just a chuff.
Not in a bad way, IMHO.

Agreed Adam.
I have been going back over the espionage thing and looking at the FIA dealing of the matter with Bernie and Todt involved in the judgement when they didn't represent an ASN.
Then there was Benetton possessing McLaren information under the similar circumstances and breaking the same rule and not being punished at all.....

But that's all water under the bridge now.
Poor old Ron got totally victimised then his marriage with Lisa broke up. He's intense but really committed and sincerely believes that his way is the right way (for him). I miss him being the team principal and believe it would have be better for McLaren if he had remained....

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Poor old Ron got totally victimised then his marriage with Lisa broke up. He's intense but really committed and sincerely believes that his way is the right way (for him). I miss him being the team principal and believe it would have be better for McLaren if he had remained....

Now you almost got me crying !

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Now you almost got me crying !

Nah. You need to harden up Bononi

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Now you almost got me crying !

Man up dude.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Now you almost got me crying !

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Nah. You need to harden up Bononi

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Man up dude.

Poor old Ron I couldn't resist.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

....and believe it would have be better for McLaren if he had remained....

Personally, I think you're probably right.

[Razzzor]

Perez has done a pretty good job I think, he's been as fast as Button in most races, sometimes faster, but things just seem to go wrong for him.

He finished 0.5s behind Button despite starting 7 positions behind him.

What Perez needs is Button to keep him pushing. What Button needs is a top 2 car.

I always have to question McLaren because look how far off the pace Button was early last year, not even able to get top 10 finishes. Meanwhile Hamilton was getting podiums and even wins. If it weren't for Hamilton, we all would have throught the McLaren was terrible last season as well, but it wasn't, it was just Button making it look bad.
Then they improved the car and it was the fastest in the second half and suddenly Button was back.

So what's the true speed of this years cars? Button's getting top 10's, does that mean the 2013 McLaren is actually more competitive than the early 2012 McLaren? It is for Button.

I think next season and the one after, if they're still partners, Perez will start to more consistently beat Button.

If it were me, I'd replace Button with Hulk after 2014.

Even Hulk I'm still not sure about. I remember in 2006 in A1GP, Hulk's teammate Johnny Reid was just about as quick as him, just a lack of luck on Reid's part meant some less points, and some **** poor results from Halliday when they shared the car. Reid's shown since then that he wasn't all that much of a star anyway, just racing locally now.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

I always have to question McLaren because look how far off the pace Button was early last year, not even able to get top 10 finishes. Meanwhile Hamilton was getting podiums and even wins. If it weren't for Hamilton, we all would have throught the McLaren was terrible last season as well, but it wasn't, it was just Button making it look bad.
Then they improved the car and it was the fastest in the second half and suddenly Button was back.

This is where time makes us lose the details too Razzzor, McLaren admitted that Jensen's terrible results were their fault and replaced the chassis, then things started to look better for Jensen!

Part of the problem seems to be that if you have a driver that understands a car and has good feel he will often be slow in a bad car.
Where a more "unfeeling" driver simply muscles the poor car around.

The problem is the car does not get better when it is simply being uncritically muscled around. Scheckter and Villeneuve, Andretti and Petersen fit in this type of scenario.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by wnut

This is where time makes us lose the details too Razzzor, McLaren admitted that Jensen's terrible results were their fault and replaced the chassis, then things started to look better for Jensen!

Part of the problem seems to be that if you have a driver that understands a car and has good feel he will often be slow in a bad car.
Where a more "unfeeling" driver simply muscles the poor car around.

The problem is the car does not get better when it is simply being uncritically muscled around. Scheckter and Villeneuve, Andretti and Petersen fit in this type of scenario.

If they have one driver who is slow in a bad car, and not really developing it and one that just muscles it but goes as quickly, but more likely quicker (as is the case generally now at McLaren), they need to get a driver in with experience who can develop the car, so that the both he, and the more raw and aggressive driver can make the most of it as well.

I've never seen Button as an ace car developer, he certainly wasn't in all those years at BAR, and even Rubens who was a technical driver wasn't able to bring it on. To me Button is a seasoned campaigner who does well if the car and conditions are right, he cannot compensate for the cars deficiencies other than perhaps driving slower in the early stages of races in the hope that the race comes to him and others burn their tyres out.

However, i'm not sure how many od the current drivers really are dab hands at car development?

[Dragger]

I think Button is good for McLaren, as a second driver. True he is a World Champ, but he isn't the fastest driver in F1, I wouldn't put him in the top 5, barely top ten in all out speed and aggression. But what he lacks in max pace he makes up for with a smooth driving style and consistency. Which makes him a perfect #2 driver.

The problem at McLaren is they don't have a fast #1 driver. Perez is really not that much faster than Button, while being less level headed and less consistent. He doesn't have the pace of drivers like Kimi, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso. So he's aggressive and hot headed... But he doesn't have the speed to back it up.

[m355y]

I think Button's career is fading, to be honest. He needs a really good car underneath him to be at his best, if he's in a midfield car then he's just another driver - shaded by Barrichello at Honda and Brawn, shaded by Trulli at Renault...the McLaren this year is just a midfield car and he's never been remotely close to a podium, let alone a win. Also I wonder if Hamilton pushed him to a higher level of performance and he's drifted into a bit of a rut without that yardstick.

It's tricky because Button has delivered this year in terms of consistent points finishes, just no spark. Perez has occasionally had that spark, but only once in a while. If McLaren came up with another car as good as the 27, Jenson would undoubtedly win again but is it enough for a team leader?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Dragger

I think Button is good for McLaren, as a second driver. True he is a World Champ, but he isn't the fastest driver in F1, I wouldn't put him in the top 5, barely top ten in all out speed and aggression. But what he lacks in max pace he makes up for with a smooth driving style and consistency. Which makes him a perfect #2 driver.

The problem at McLaren is they don't have a fast #1 driver. Perez is really not that much faster than Button, while being less level headed and less consistent. He doesn't have the pace of drivers like Kimi, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso. So he's aggressive and hot headed... But he doesn't have the speed to back it up.

Yes Button has for a long time seemed to me to be a top notch no 2 regardless of his WDC success in 2009.

Perez, I will once again argue, is still developing. If he continues to produce drives like he did yesterday, which is at least what he is capable of, surely that contradicts the last part of your quote?

I think and hope Perez will kick on in the last 3 races which will stand him in very good stead whether he stays with McLaren or not. I actually think they may have thrown him a few strategy challenges over the race weekends, whilst they've been so uncompetitive, to see how he copes and see how committed he really is. On the basis of yesterday it's finally working.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

In all fairness to JB, he was a fabulous lead driver for McLaren in 2011, and has earned himself the accolade of being the only driver Vettel has publicly admitted to fearing. I think he still has the speed to win a lot of races. The fact that we've only had 8 or so wet/damp racing laps this season hasn't helped him, considering, when it's low grip conditions, he's leagues above everyone who isn't Nico Hulkenberg...

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

In all fairness to JB, he was a fabulous lead driver for McLaren in 2011, and has earned himself the accolade of being the only driver Vettel has publicly admitted to fearing. I think he still has the speed to win a lot of races. The fact that we've only had 8 or so wet/damp racing laps this season hasn't helped him, considering, when it's low grip conditions, he's leagues above everyone who isn't Nico Hulkenberg...

Hmmm, I think he benefited from Lewis being in a bit of a 'mental hole' and I am not convinced by any means he is automatically the best driver in the wet. Vettel has moved on a bit from when he supposedly said he feared our Jense!

Vettel has proved he is superb in such conditions, Webber was (until Korea 2010!) Alonso usually a master of it, Lewis has his damp moments and one or two others seem to excel in tricky conditions when their talent can really come to the fore.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Hmmm, I think he benefited from Lewis being in a bit of a 'mental hole' and I am not convinced by any means he is automatically the best driver in the wet. Vettel has moved on a bit from when he supposedly said he feared our Jense!

Vettel has proved he is superb in such conditions, Webber was (until Korea 2010!) Alonso usually a master of it, Lewis has his damp moments and one or two others seem to excel in tricky conditions when their talent can really come to the fore.

Hmm, 2 seconds per lap faster than the rest of the field at Canada, 2011, in the second best car on tyres 4 laps older than the rest of the field...

...and Shanghai 2010, when he was lapping 0.5s faster than Hamilton in equal cars when the rain fell, and after he got through traffic continued to pull away like this...

...and I said low grip conditions. Alonso is great in the wet and fabulous in the dry. In the middle, though, he is very, very average. Most recently, in Brazil 2012, he was going slower over a lap then Timo Glock in a Marussia for a lengthy period at the start of the race, when it was a slow drizzle and only the McLaren's and Hulkenberg actually seemed to have talent.

Button is the only man to have finished higher than Vettel in a season from the reg changes in 2009 until now, when they'll end. All of what I have said so far are stone cold facts. Yes, Vettel is so much better now (he has 0 weaknesses other than severe pressure), but still, I'd say it's McLaren letting JB down then JB letting McLaren down. He can still win. He can still outclass the entire field of F1 drivers when it suits him. It's just McLaren need to give him a car that allows him to do that.

[stripedcat]

Jenson is a very clean driver - don't resort to dirty driving or trying the mind games offtrack. He seems like a really nice bloke as well.

I think his forté is wet weather going to dry or vice-versa conditions. There he seems to have much more of a "feel" for the car. Don't get me wrong - in the current F1 field - there are some very good wet weather drivers : Vettel(remember Italy 2008?), Hamilton(Fuji 2007 and Silverstone 2008) and Alonso(European 2007) - but I think in those specific conditions, Button has the edge. He is a smooth driver and is easy on the tyres - but with the current Pirellis, he doesn't seem to get that much of an advantage. I do agree with most of what has been said, he does seem to have a narrow operating window with an F1 car. If it's good and setup well then he be on superb form - but if it's not then more that likely his teammate will outperform him in the same car.

He seem happy with McLaren, and they are still a top team. The only major concern is the number of mistakes they seem to have made under Whitmarsh's leadership. They do seem to develop slower cars at the start of the season(2009 and this year being an example) - but they usually have the talent to go back to winning during the latter period of the season(not this year though!). That isn't a way to win championships. I do hope that next year they are more competitive.

[steve_r]

Is there anything to read into regarding the continuing delay in McLaren signing up Button & Perez for next season?

Of the unsigned drivers for next season, I can only really imagine that Hulkenberg would be on McLarens mind - but perhaps they have more irons in the fire?

[bella]

i honestly believe they're having to have a serious think about magnussen. it's not so much that he did exactly what they were expecting him to do and win the title, it's more the manner in which he did it. it was just so convincing (albeit not a total whitewash) that it just feels like there's no need to put him in a marussia and let him find his feet.

idk, maybe that's a naive view, but he really has been excellent and he has such a mature approach to the sport.