Any Grand Prix in history, which would you choose?

[climb]

Silverstone 2003

[E.B]

Originally Posted by White flag man

But you could also go back Paul Ricard on the 29th November 1975, and just say to Graham Hill, "don't fly home today, it's a bit foggy in England". Thus, allowing the us to see the full potential of Tony Brise.

He had already been advised not to fly, and certainly as he approached Elstree he was advised several times the fog was increasing / visibility decreasing rapidly and to divert elsewhere (to Luton IIRC).... For a start Elstree ATC had relatively primitive radar and navigational equipment to aid his approach compared to the much better equipped Luton. Even when visibility fell below 800 metres he just continued undeterred to Elstree.

Luton Airport was entirely fog free and excellent visibility at the time, a fact he was repeatedly advised of. Not long before a small plane with a fully experienced commercial pilot with better navigational aids had made three attempts to land at Elstree but had finally given up and diverted to Elstree due to the low visibility (although at that time the visibility was over double as clear as when Hill tried to land.)

Hill had made his mind up he was going to land at Elstree whatever, as his car was at Elstree and he had a to attend a party at his home in Mill Hill, just down the road from the airport.... and based on what he referred to as local knowledge. (Not much help when you cant see!) However the fatal mistake was likely made back in France. The altimeter was set at sea level instead of Elstree, (a difference of some 500ft) and it is I understand believed that's why the Piper was actually flying much lower than Hill thought, causing him to fly into the trees at Arkley Golf Course.

Other than that the planes Airworthy certificate was expired, and he was not even licenced to fly on instruments, obligatory for the journey he was doing, with passengers and in low visibility..

In addition when Hill took off from Ricard, it was already 155 kgs over its maximum payload

He had previously been given the neccesary licence to fly, but many aspects (to do with instrument ratings of it) had expired in 1971 and Hill had not bothered to renew it. He had actually earned his Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) Rating back in early 1970 but this was an annual renewal and had never been renewed and was therefore invalid. I cant remember the exact details but I do believe he held a current at the time basic UK Private Pilots licence which was rated for night flying. However that does not entitle him to have flown with passengers on board without a valid IMC rating in those conditions as mentioned before..

Actually I believe the plane was not even registered in the UK, and was still flying with the American previous owner's registration numbers on the plane, although the previous owner had signed it off as having been exported. In effect the aircraft was totally unregistered.

I believe the errors and lack of the neccesary credentials caused the insurers to not to pay any the claims, settlement of which left Bette having to sell the house and in effect use the money they had.... and in effect live a hard life until Damon broke through in F1.

Sorry about the essay but though it might be of interest. The reality is there was very little about the deaths of Brise and the 5 others including Graham himself that was not down to Hill's errors in judgement and stubborness (perhaps self belief) that day, so sadly I dont think anyone telling him to not take off would have actually changed history for the better.

[White flag man]

Thanks for that E.B,
what a catalogue of errors!
OK maybe I wouldn't advise him not to fly, I'd just blow up the plane!

[herowassenna]

Fascinating post E.B, thanks

[E.B]

Thanks.... I thought twice about posting such an essay, being a bit of a '10-Tenths Virgin' and not wanting to go too far off topic with a post, but felt it may be of interest to some.... and it was directly related to another post very much on topic that related to the occurences that sad day.

PS - I was a great fan of Hill, and was at the time fascinated at the prospects of Tony Brise, having watched his total dominance of Formula Atlantic in his Orange Modus (and before that in UK F3) up and down the circuits of the UK.

[herowassenna]

Another would be Kyalami 1977, Tom Pryce's tragic death. I'd love to have been behind the idiot who ran across the track, just hold him for 5 seconds. Another potential great, lost.

[stripedcat]

Monaco 1982. That race had a lot of surprises in that one.

I'd say also any race featured the old Österreichring. I'd also say the 1987 race there was good - the restarts, the battle between Mansell and Piquet, and Prost overtaking two cars on one lap all made a good race. God I miss that circuit!!!

[bjohnsonsmith]

What a question.

Swedish GP, Anderstop, 1976. A one, two by Tyrrell, with their P34 six wheeler, driven by Jody Sheckter and the late Patrick Depailler.

[Tim the Grey]

I have a DeLorean? Whoopee. Seeya!
I'm off for 20 years SOLID touring around the world, watching ALL of them! Until about 1998, anyway!
Then I'm off to catch the really great Le Mans races.

[Woolley]

It seems to me that an awful lot of Grand Prix history could have been changed by simply donning the garb of an Irish priest and running out onto track at the opportune moment. Perhaps we should be grateful for Fr Horan as we don't know what calamity he may have been preventing when he arrived from the future...

For me, there's only one contender. That race at Dijon where Mssrs Villeneuve and Arnoux demonstrated what is meant by the phrase 'wheel to wheel racing'.

[Try Hard]

Originally Posted by Belatti

Nurburgring 1957, but I would have needed a helicopter to follow the race in that track in that year.

Blimey, a page and a half to find the first mention of the race I'd want to go see.... agreed it'd be difficult to follow... but even so you'd be able to visably see the minutes be eaten up each lap...

[sparkione]

A Nurburgring, with trees and grass verges surrounding the track, no guard rail in sight[/QUOTE]

And the 1957 event, where Fangio's Maser 250F caught and passed Hawthorn and Collins' Ferraris was almost as epic as Nuvolari's drive in '35.
Those guys had balls you could see from outer space...

[luke]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Imola 1994.


And I would do anything to change the timeline. F1 would be saved from the last decade and a half.


And then back to future ! How would it be ?

Extremely different. A great shame for F1 of the loss of Ayrton, but the positive out of it allowed the FIA to change the safety of the sport to whole new levels and saved a lot of drivers today. I think Webber's crash could have been far worse just a few years a go.

Silverstone 1987, 2 years before me, BUT seen the race many times like nearly all the races from the '80s - looked like a fabulous race.

[6157]

I was afraid I was going to come in here and be the only one to morbidly say Imola 94. You cannot deny that was arguably one of the most historic weekends in motorsports, let alone in Formula 1. The entire sport changed that weekend.

Ideally I would have the cover of a FIA VIP, so I could sit in on the pertinent insider meetings that took place during the weekend and then of course sit in race control for that fateful Sunday.

It's curious to wonder if we had been pioneering the head and neck restraint technology in 94, if the FIA would have gone down that route along with increasing the car safety instead of altering racetracks.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by luke

Extremely different. A great shame for F1 of the loss of Ayrton, but the positive out of it allowed the FIA to change the safety of the sport to whole new levels and saved a lot of drivers today. I think Webber's crash could have been far worse just a few years a go.

Silverstone 1987, 2 years before me, BUT seen the race many times like nearly all the races from the '80s - looked like a fabulous race.

Tell you what, that's an interesting scenario. Imagine if those incidents didn't happen. I wonder if Wendliger's accident could have been worse..? Didn't they impliment some pretty quick changes after Imola?

And you're right - Webber would have had a torrid time during that incident the other week. But in fairness, a different 'Imola 1994' would have happened between then and now, I would have thought.

Selby

[Malfunction Junction]

Originally Posted by 6157

I was afraid I was going to come in here and be the only one to morbidly say Imola 94. You cannot deny that was arguably one of the most historic weekends in motorsports, let alone in Formula 1. The entire sport changed that weekend.

Ideally I would have the cover of a FIA VIP, so I could sit in on the pertinent insider meetings that took place during the weekend and then of course sit in race control for that fateful Sunday.

It's curious to wonder if we had been pioneering the head and neck restraint technology in 94, if the FIA would have gone down that route along with increasing the car safety instead of altering racetracks.

IIRC, what is now known as the HANS device had it's origins in the mid 80's and was first raced in 1991. Can anybody confirm?

It's worth remembering also that some of the technology now in use (materials used in chassis/equipment construction) was developed as a specific result of Imola 1994.

All in all it remains a terribly painful event to remember, but the lessens were learned and applied. Put in the context of Le Mans 1955, which has influenced all forms of motorsport ever since, it's also a measure of how far things had come from when a polo shirt and leather helmet were de riguer.

All told, the 1957 German Grand Prix would be my pick, but I think I'd struggle to watch it with the knowledge of today.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Malfunction Junction

IIRC, what is now known as the HANS device had it's origins in the mid 80's and was first raced in 1991. Can anybody confirm?

It's worth remembering also that some of the technology now in use (materials used in chassis/equipment construction) was developed as a specific result of Imola 1994.

All in all it remains a terribly painful event to remember, but the lessens were learned and applied. Put in the context of Le Mans 1955, which has influenced all forms of motorsport ever since, it's also a measure of how far things had come from when a polo shirt and leather helmet were de riguer.

All told, the 1957 German Grand Prix would be my pick, but I think I'd struggle to watch it with the knowledge of today.

The Handford was first introduced in the 1998 CART FedEx series.

[Schumiforeverever]

1996 Spanish grand prix
1995 European grand prix
1998 canadian grand prix
1993 European grand prix
1979 French grand prix
1991 USA Grand prix

[wnut]

This thread is a damning indictment on the state of modern F1.

Only three posts relate to GPs after 1994

Silvertone 2003
Monaco 2003
Germany 2009

It would sem that F1 has failed to deliver any decent racing since 1994!

Maybe its about time the FIA and FOCA took notice and fixed the Formula to allow the cars to race again!

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by wnut

This thread is a damning indictment on the state of modern F1.

Only three posts relate to GPs after 1994

Silvertone 2003
Monaco 2003
Germany 2009

It would sem that F1 has failed to deliver any decent racing since 1994!

Maybe its about time the FIA and FOCA took notice and fixed the Formula to allow the cars to race again!

The racing wasn't a ton better. The cars were, though.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

The racing wasn't a ton better. The cars were, though.

I tend to agree with that. The processional aspect of racing, which people have complained about this season, I rember being an all too familiar feature in the years before the tyre and fuel stops were brought in.

[cptkablamo]

The cars were so much better - so fixing them wouldn't be a smart move...relaxing the rules would.

(and allowing the drivers to be something other than PR machines would be nice too)

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by wnut

This thread is a damning indictment on the state of modern F1.

Only three posts relate to GPs after 1994

Silvertone 2003
Monaco 2003
Germany 2009

It would sem that F1 has failed to deliver any decent racing since 1994!

Maybe its about time the FIA and FOCA took notice and fixed the Formula to allow the cars to race again!

Well mmine would be Adelaide 1993 (Senna's last win...sentimental favourite)
or that other great Adelaide race in 1986 (Prost wins, Mansell burst a tyre).

Either way all my others predated 1998 so the changes to the rules since 1997 have done nothing to endear F1 to me at all......

[Peralta]

Has anyone mention the 2008 Brasilian Grand Prix where Hamilton took the title on the last lap of the last race of the year! I remember as that being the most exciting race with all the emotions at a high.

I also think this year will turn out be a classic and can't wait till the final race.

[wnut]

I psoted the following in the Indy car section after JagTech posted a link to an article of his which suggested that Indy races be divided into 2 heats for the increased entertainment value.

I think it is relevant here as it added a lot to a GP weekend

Thanks Jagtech - my thinking exactly.
The split event and back up program offer far better value for everyone.
Having regional and local racing on the program pulls their crowds to the events and exposes them to the crowds that the big name series draws.

The first GP I ever attended featured
Morning warm up for all categories including GP cars beginning at 7:00am
Morning Warm up of lesser categories
GP Morning Warm up
Production Car Race 15 laps
Production Motorcycles 15 Laps
Racing Motorcycles 15 Laps
Formula Vee 15 Laps
Formula Ford 15 Laps
GP Drivers Parade
Grand Prix 80 Laps
Modified Production Cars 15 Laps

In this they used to have a lap of honour for the podium drivers,
so everyone knew what they looked like. Entry for kids under 15 was
free.

All the local categories had massive fields because it was the biggest crowd they would ever run in front of -100 000 plus spectators. Happy sponsors!

It was a pretty good carnival where there was plenty to watch, and did not cost an arm and a leg.

Later the only event on the day was the Grand Prix - the quality of the GP racing was dropping off, and there was nothing to see before or after the GP.

We wonder why racing is dying - go figure!