GT3 v's Supercar v's SuperTouring v's TCR - The Ultimate Thread

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Casper

That is your stock answer to anyone who wants any change and enjoyed motor sport in the past. I wonder what you will say when you want a return to what we watch today when you are old and grey.

Telling people to go and watch what they are asking for should be everyone's stock answer

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Mixer

The parity/equivalency methods never worked, and the arms race meant unless you had the car of the year you couldn't win a damn thing.

There was no parity in Group A, there was never supposed to be, you built the best car you could and if it didn't stack up you had another go or pulled the pin. The turbo equivalency wasn't quite right as turbo technology developed, but in other areas the equivalency formula wasn't too bad, look at the original M3's results in 1987 for example, a Class B car able to challenge the outright class cars.

Arms races have never bothered me, i consider it a part of racing and development. Sure it does limit the lifespan of a set of rules, but it keeps things different and everything gets a freshen up every few years. Look at the variety of winners and the variety of winning cars we had over the lifespan of Group A from 1985-1992, and then look at the variety of winning cars and drivers over the last 8 years of Supercars racing.

[Mixer]

Apples to orange comparison. The longevity of the series speaks for the appeal of the rules for spectators and teams, historically. But now a paradigm shift is needed.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by racer69

There was no parity in Group A, there was never supposed to be, you built the best car you could and if it didn't stack up you had another go or pulled the pin. The turbo equivalency wasn't quite right as turbo technology developed, but in other areas the equivalency formula wasn't too bad, look at the original M3's results in 1987 for example, a Class B car able to challenge the outright class cars.

Arms races have never bothered me, i consider it a part of racing and development. Sure it does limit the lifespan of a set of rules, but it keeps things different and everything gets a freshen up every few years. Look at the variety of winners and the variety of winning cars we had over the lifespan of Group A from 1985-1992, and then look at the variety of winning cars and drivers over the last 8 years of Supercars racing.

In the last 5 years of Group A, 2 brands won the championship, In the last 5 years of Supercarcars (COTF) 2 brands have won the championship.

No year under Group A had more than individual 4 winners, Where as we have had 5 winners just this year

5 brands have won in the last 5 years of COTF, compared to 3 in the last 5 years of Group A.

I'm sorry, your glasses appear very Rosey

[racer69]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I'm sorry, your glasses appear very Rosey

Maybe they are.

Point is I enjoyed Group A, and I don't enjoy modern day Supercars anywhere near as much or find it as interesting, just a personal opinion

Originally Posted by peckstar

In the last 5 years of Group A, 2 brands won the championship, In the last 5 years of Supercarcars (COTF) 2 brands have won the championship.

No year under Group A had more than individual 4 winners, Where as we have had 5 winners just this year

5 brands have won in the last 5 years of COTF, compared to 3 in the last 5 years of Group A.

Those are great stats, but completely misses the point I was getting at in my post.

Compare a 1985 BMW 635csi with a 1992 Nissan GTR, a 1985 Ford Mustang with a 1992 Ford Sierra, a 1985 Alfa GTV6 with a 1992 BMW M3, a 1985 Commodore with a 1992 Commodore, not to mention the Starion's, Rover's, Volvo's, Jaguar's and Mercedes etc.. that passed through in those eight seasons as well

Now compare that with the variety we've seen in V8Supercars/Supercars in the last 8 seasons. A bit of variety for sure, but nowhere near as much.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by peckstar

In the last 5 years of Group A, 2 brands won the championship, In the last 5 years of Supercarcars (COTF) 2 brands have won the championship.

No year under Group A had more than individual 4 winners, Where as we have had 5 winners just this year

5 brands have won in the last 5 years of COTF, compared to 3 in the last 5 years of Group A.

I'm sorry, your glasses appear very Rosey

Of course the least competitive year of touring car racing was 2012. Even the least competitive year of Group A had more winning Teams.

And let's not forgot that from 2005 to 2015 Bathurst had the fewest number of different winning teams over any 10 year period (including the years Brock dominated) of the Great Race.

Supercars have provided some wonderful moments over the years but also instances of reduced competition and little variety of winning teams.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by chavez

Of course the least competitive year of touring car racing was 2012. Even the least competitive year of Group A had more winning Teams.

And let's not forgot that from 2005 to 2015 Bathurst had the fewest number of different winning teams over any 10 year period (including the years Brock dominated) of the Great Race.

Supercars have provided some wonderful moments over the years but also instances of reduced competition and little variety of winning teams.

False, more rosed coloured glasses

2012 had 3 winning teams and 5 winning drivers, We made significant changes after this

1991 had 2 winning teams and 3 winning drivers, No year under Group A had more than 4 drivers win, We killed Group A the next year

you just made random dates to suit your argument regarding bathurst winners

Once again its really irrelevant. this is not a comparison of Group A to Supercars, Group A is dead, it wont be back, lessons were learnt and now we have a really popular series

[chavez]

Originally Posted by peckstar

False, more rosed coloured glasses

2012 had 3 winning teams and 5 winning drivers, We made significant changes after this

1991 had 2 winning teams and 3 winning drivers, No year under Group A had more than 4 drivers win, We killed Group A the next year

you just made random dates to suit your argument regarding bathurst winners

Once again its really irrelevant. this is not a comparison of Group A to Supercars, Group A is dead, it wont be back, lessons were learnt and now we have a really popular series

The 1991 Touring Car Season in Australia had the following winners:-

Skaife
Richards
Longhurst
Gibbs / Onslow

3 Teams and 5 drivers.

Yes I have included all of the races held to make a valid comparison.


Yes we have a popular series with the fans, which is great, but a series which is on the nose with the manufacturers.

What needs to change to attract the manufacturers back to the sport?

The following marques had factory or semi-factory in Australia representation during those failed Group A years. Not bad for an unpopular formula with no supporters.
- Nissan
- Holden
- Toyota
- Mitsubishi
- Alfa Romeo
- Volvo
- Audi
- BMW

Maybe the question is how do we combine the strength of Group A (Manufacturer support) with the strength of Supercars (Fan support)?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by chavez

The 1991 Touring Car Season in Australia had the following winners:-

Skaife
Richards
Longhurst
Gibbs / Onslow

3 Teams and 5 drivers.

Yes I have included all of the races held to make a valid comparison.

Still makes your comment wrong Group A had an equivlent bad year by your stats, Although its best was only slightly better

And if you are going to drag in non ATCC and co drivers, then we should include dumbrell luff and youlden, sorry thats 8 drivers

And i compared ATCC to aTCC, that is a valid comparison.

Still Group A wont be replacing supercars. TCR is its modern replacement though. How about we talk about that

[chavez]

Originally Posted by peckstar

TCR is its modern replacement though. How about we talk about that

I recently watched the TCR International race from Spa.

The racing was close but the cars do not move around on track and from the outside don't appear overly difficult to drive.

The cars needs to appear as if the driver is earning his money.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by chavez

I recently watched the TCR International race from Spa.

The racing was close but the cars do not move around on track and from the outside don't appear overly difficult to drive.

The cars needs to appear as if the driver is earning his money.

I just want to see good racing, with opportunities to overtake

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by chavez

The racing was close but the cars do not move around on track and from the outside don't appear overly difficult to drive.

They are underpowered for the weight. Plus they have ABS.

TCR-style (as in a road car modified with race suspension, roll cage, racing gearbox) but with rear-drive twin turbos V6s/I6s (and/or V8s with or without turbo), and a H-pattern gearbox would be fantastic.

It's a bit of a pickle that some of the cars, like the Mercedes C63 don't actually come with a manual in the road model. Which would be a pickle to homologate.

I personally wouldn't them to all paddle shift (like TCR) but unfortunately that is how it might have to be. :/

IMO, it's really important to move away from abstract V8 or turbo Altimas (aka Maximas) or Commodore (aka Vectras/Insignias), and use performance cars that you can actually buy (that you need to be a banker to buy one, is besides the point).

To this end it may be necessary to ask Holden to leave the championship TBH, as a rear drive V8 Vectra is all a bit abstract... It wouldn't qualify for the "TCR-SuperSaloon" (say) anyway as the road car Commodore is not a V8 or twin-turbo rear wheel drive.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I just want to see good racing, with opportunities to overtake

Improved production is for you then!

Cars with different strengths and weaknesses, thanks to a properly designed capacity-to-weight formula. Great stuff!

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Improved production is for you then!

Cars with different strengths and weaknesses, thanks to a properly designed capacity-to-weight formula. Great stuff!

Im happy with supercars, still the most popular category in the country by a long way, No need to change. does all i ask for. My observation is that many people agree with me, Its usually only the people who have always been against supercars arguing for a difference

Cant see any reason to get rid of the v8. I guess some people have big-motor envy and try and sell their flashiness to make up for it

[chavez]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Im happy with supercars, still the most popular category in the country by a long way, No need to change. does all i ask for. My observation is that many people agree with me, Its usually only the people who have always been against supercars arguing for a difference

Cant see any reason to get rid of the v8. I guess some people have big-motor envy and try and sell their flashiness to make up for it

But aren't Supercars themselves pushing for a change with Generation 3 rules?

It is a very difficult balancing act - good racing, reducing costs and attracting manufacturer support.

Maybe it is not possible to have all of these three attributes.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by chavez

But aren't Supercars themselves pushing for a change with Generation 3 rules?

It is a very difficult balancing act - good racing, reducing costs and attracting manufacturer support.

Maybe it is not possible to have all of these three attributes.

I think you meant Gen 2, so yes (Gen 3 is still in its infancy)

Maybe you are right, especially as manufacturers move away from what the fans want

[leothedrummer]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Im happy with supercars, still the most popular category in the country by a long way, No need to change.

Do you believe that there is no room for improvement, nothing to do better, no positives to come from change?

Originally Posted by chavez

Of course the least competitive year of touring car racing was 2012. Even the least competitive year of Group A had more winning Teams.

2012 is a great example of quality over quantity - I remember it being one of the most exciting seasons in recent memory, both in terms of on track action and the championship fight (for the first 6 months, until 888 broke the will of FPR).

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by leothedrummer

Do you believe that there is no room for improvement, nothing to do better, no positives to come from change?

Happy with improvement when it improves the product. But the product is good and does not need changing as a product. Little things can be changed to improve what we have, but they are small in the scheme of things (i dont like the point score system and ticket prices are too high for instance)

however that is not really the issue, Change is being forced by things outside the product (lack of manufacturers). We may have change forced on us, but may be a step back (maybe even too far)

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

. But the product is good and does not need changing as a product. r)

The product is so good that only one manufacturer looks to be interested, and if they have a change of management even they might withdraw too.

Brilliant....

If Nissan withdraw, as expected, and then Holden withdraw a year or two later, this "good product that didn't need changing" will really be up excrement creek without a paddle.

[Compromised]

Without manufacturers I'd argue Supercars would have to go through a bit of an austerity process, rather than disband entirely.

Is that palatable?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Without manufacturers I'd argue Supercars would have to go through a bit of an austerity process, rather than disband entirely.

Is that palatable?

Ford teams have increased this year, without manufacturer support.

Im not convinced manufacturers are still relevant, all that is important is brands

[E.B]

Originally Posted by peckstar

.. all that is important is brands

Yes, and VASC (I guess we soon wont be able to refer to them as V8's ) needs more brands to maintain interest.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by E.B

Yes, and VASC (I guess we soon wont be able to refer to them as V8's ) needs more brands to maintain interest.

Does it, 20 years with mostly only two brands and still very popular. Suggests it doesnt need more than two brands.

VA stands for Virgin Australia, we havent referred too them as v8s for a few years now

[E.B]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Does it, 20 years with mostly only two brands and still very popular. Suggests it doesnt need more than two brands.

VA stands for Virgin Australia, we havent referred too them as v8s for a few years now

I am quite aware of what VA stands for thank you.
My point is of the many fans of motor racing I know I cant think of one that says I am off to the VA's this weekend.... still referring to them rightly or wrongly as V8s or Supercars. I guess they will still be referred to as Supercars once the V8 exclusivity expires in the near future.

Are you telling me that it is more interesting now with a likely minimal Ford presence, No Nissans, mostly Holdens, than it was when we had Mercedes, Volvo Nissan Ford and Holden involved?

It was that increase in brands involved that rekindled my interest in Supercars, and that its demise has led to my declining interest in the category. I don't think I am alone in this.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by E.B

Are you telling me that it is more interesting now with a likely minimal Ford presence, No Nissans, mostly Holdens, than it was when we had Mercedes, Volvo Nissan Ford and Holden involved?

It was that increase in brands involved that rekindled my interest in Supercars, and that its demise has led to my declining interest in the category. I don't think I am alone in this.

Personally the interest did not change. But im a Ford fan so the key need was meet

Audience and TV was up in 2017 compared to 2016, decline might not be at the rate you are thinking