IMSA DPi Discussion

[JLGarcia]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

It's not like Dyson was grenading the previous version of the engine every weekend.

Worth noting there is the possibility of more LMP1-P cars than DPi next year.

It's funny that any time a DPi effort is rumored it's to be taken with a grain of salt because these writers are just wishful-thinking rumormongers, but each P1 Privateer that's rumored is set in stone and 100% going to happen because reasons.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by JLGarcia

It's funny that any time a DPi effort is rumored it's to be taken with a grain of salt because these writers are just wishful-thinking rumormongers, but each P1 Privateer that's rumored is set in stone and 100% going to happen because reasons.

I kinda thought it was the other way around. We talk like Honda is 100% confirmed, and that Bentley was only a whisper away, but nobody ever believes a P1 car until it's on the grid.

[chernaudi]

Maybe it's because orders have been confirmed for LMP1 customer cars, while the various VAG to DPI rumors have been shot down several times. Honda/HPD will probably happen if everything aligns next season. But VAG to DPI, not a chance right now, not until I see a Volkswagen Group company put out a press release that it's happening.

[Scorchess]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

But let's go back to DPi regulations. Since they can't run in Le Mans in their current guise

Ah but they can, they can be entered in LMP1 with very little modification. Just not as a manufacturer, which is why I took ESM as example. They don't have to change a thing about the car itself, just the ECU as far as I know.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

It's not like Dyson was grenading the previous version of the engine every weekend.

Worth noting there is the possibility of more LMP1-P cars than DPi next year.

Maybe not every week, but every other week is not too far off. There is quite the history of AER four bangers, MZRR based or not, going up in smoke frequently. We used to run a pool of what lap the #16 and #20 would have their respective turbo fires.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Maybe not every week, but every other week is not too far off. There is quite the history of AER four bangers, MZRR based or not, going up in smoke frequently. We used to run a pool of what lap the #16 and #20 would have their respective turbo fires.

Accurate.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Scorchess

Ah but they can, they can be entered in LMP1 with very little modification. Just not as a manufacturer, which is why I took ESM as example. They don't have to change a thing about the car itself, just the ECU as far as I know.

I have the sensation that if ESM goes to LMP1-P with its DPI will have several modifications:

*They should lower the weight to 830 kg
*Probably will change the current V6 by the same Cosworth using for the byKolles, to save weight and have better power under fuel consumption regulations.
*They must modify the suspension to use the Dunlop or Michelin
*And surely some new aerodynamic package

[Scorchess]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I have the sensation that if ESM goes to LMP1-P with its DPI will have several modifications:

*They should lower the weight to 830 kg
*Probably will change the current V6 by the same Cosworth using for the byKolles, to save weight and have better power under fuel consumption regulations.
*They must modify the suspension to use the Dunlop or Michelin
*And surely some new aerodynamic package

Well I said they could enter, not that they would be competitive

[MagVanisher]

If ESM wants those modifications to happen in order to join LMP1-P in Le Mans, then Onroak will have to pull resources on making a competitive LMP1 package such as suspension and bodywork.

[Makaze]

I'm hearing cooler talk that the Penske/HPD Dpi project is in trouble because they will not race if there is no chance to win.

BOP problem!!!

NA engines needs max of 5.0L.(6.2L is so going overkill like Ford did with their GT40 7.0L at Le Mans)

But Penske will not rock the boat on BOP because they are a GM supplier/user.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Makaze

I'm hearing cooler talk that the Penske/HPD Dpi project is in trouble because they will not race if there is no chance to win.

BOP problem!!!

NA engines needs max of 5.0L.(6.2L is so going overkill like Ford did with their GT40 7.0L at Le Mans)

But Penske will not rock the boat on BOP because they are a GM supplier/user.

The Penske Porsche program in 2009 was hindered by BoP nightmares in the Rolex Series, so RP and gang have said publicly they won't tolerate any of that nonsense.

Let's get this straight, Cadillac is head and shoulders better than Mazda and the private Nissan effort. And WTR is the best team in IMSA right now. Having Honda come in with a package that will be better sorted to challenge the Caddy, combined with a Penske-led program means the Cadillacs are in for stiff competition.

A 5.0L displacement limit did nothing to help the Porsche flat-6 in Daytona Prototype back in the day. The Ford, BMW, and Chevy powerplants all out-torqued the Porsche motor. Grand-Am didn't help things with the BoP in my opinion, because they didn't want a fair weather Penske Porsche effort to upset the apple cart of consistently good racing the long standing DP owners and manufacturers provided.

Chris

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Makaze

I'm hearing cooler talk that the Penske/HPD Dpi project is in trouble because they will not race if there is no chance to win.

BOP problem!!!

NA engines needs max of 5.0L.(6.2L is so going overkill like Ford did with their GT40 7.0L at Le Mans)

But Penske will not rock the boat on BOP because they are a GM supplier/user.

Balancing engines on displacement is a slippery slope that doesn't work. Lowering the capacity of the GM engines will not achieve the results you are wanting... in fact it won't change anything. They use the same stock block in the Callaway GT3 cars and that doesn't seem to be an "unfair" advantage in Europe. What is the problem here?

I'm sorry you don't like WTR as I'm not a fan myself. I wasn't a fan of Audi either. That's no reason to call for rule changes just because you don't like the outcome of the races.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Balancing engines on displacement is a slippery slope that doesn't work. Lowering the capacity of the GM engines will not achieve the results you are wanting... in fact it won't change anything. They use the same stock block in the Callaway GT3 cars and that doesn't seem to be an "unfair" advantage in Europe. What is the problem here?

I'm sorry you don't like WTR as I'm not a fan myself. I wasn't a fan of Audi either. That's no reason to call for rule changes just because you don't like the outcome of the races.

It is always hard to separate the chassis from the engine e from the team and driver's in this sort of discussion. But I will submit for evidence that at the le mans test day the Dallara chassis was decidedly mid pack compared to the rest of the field with the same engine. Of course there are testing and car experience considerations here, but I'm just throwing that tid bit out there.

[TF110]

Did the DPi version of the Dallara run first or did the lmp2 version Dallara run first? It seems they got it right (Cadillac) while Dallara (no one, really) got it right in lmp2 compared to the Oreca.

[Makaze]

In the real world to compete with the GM NA 6.2L V8 you would need a 4.0L min. high CR V8 with low boost with IMSA/FIA BOP.

With todays BOP the turbo engines have the extra handicap of rev range boost control.TAKE THAT AWAY and then GM would crying about BOP because then the little turbo engines could compete coming out of the corners.(but GM's motor would still have bullet proof reliability)

HPD will be in better shape than Mazda because their engine will be 3.5L and the engine was designed to be a racing engine from day one.(that is why it is so expensive.......$75,000 USD for it on Acura parts order sheet)

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Makaze

In the real world to compete with the GM NA 6.2L V8 you would need a 4.0L min. high CR V8 with low boost with IMSA/FIA BOP.

With todays BOP the turbo engines have the extra handicap of rev range boost control.TAKE THAT AWAY and then GM would crying about BOP because then the little turbo engines could compete coming out of the corners.(but GM's motor would still have bullet proof reliability)

HPD will be in better shape than Mazda because their engine will be 3.5L and the engine was designed to be a racing engine from day one.(that is why it is so expensive.......$75,000 USD for it on Acura parts order sheet)

The Mazda MZR-R, or whatever they call it nowadays, is a purpose-built AER race motor.

Chris

[Akrapovic]

The high downforce Dallara is pretty decent. It's run very well in ELMS. The low downforce version appears to be a lemon. It's been said it doesn't feel connected to the road at all.

[YZFrider]

I just wanted to throw out there that optimized understanding of the Continental tire also is crucial to contending for championships in the IMSA series. The four chassis constructors for P2 build their product with open tires in mind (better tires at that). Here in the States, it's one tire. Inferior at that. BoP aside, it's why the Daytona Prototypes held an edge over the lmp2s. The Cadillac DPi teams and Dallara had the jump on constructing for the new DPi era. I believe that building specifically for that tire in mind and the miles and hours of testing has contributed to the success of the Caddie teams

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by joeb

It is always hard to separate the chassis from the engine e from the team and driver's in this sort of discussion. But I will submit for evidence that at the le mans test day the Dallara chassis was decidedly mid pack compared to the rest of the field with the same engine. Of course there are testing and car experience considerations here, but I'm just throwing that tid bit out there.

I would expect this kind of post out of a clearly biased Mazda fan. The Dallara was fastest on the straits though... and by a strangely high margin too.

[carbsmith]

WTR spanking AXR aside it's still the case that Cadillacs have finished in 11 out of 15 podium positions this year and most of the exceptions have come from huge blatant driving or strategy errors.

We'll never know but it doesn't look good for BoP when the worst Cadillac is miles behind the best and still ahead of anything else.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

We'll never know but it doesn't look good for BoP when the worst Cadillac is miles behind the best and still ahead of anything else.

...if only that were true.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The high downforce Dallara is pretty decent. It's run very well in ELMS. The low downforce version appears to be a lemon. It's been said it doesn't feel connected to the road at all.

Originally Posted by JHamilton

The Dallara was fastest on the straits though... and by a strangely high margin too.

I will l just leave those two juxtaposed and let others sort it out.

I will say this: I’d feel a lot more sanguine about eh success of a Penske DPi venture if it was being run by a team with some racing history. A little experience, you know?

My feeling is that AXR was, from the start, a businessman’s team. Born from the wreckage of other efforts with leftover Brumos bits, the team was run like a business by a businessman from Day One. And pretty much had success from Day One as well.

WTR started as a an old racer’s team—Wayne Taylor decided he could drive for himself better than he could listen to other people telling him what to do, so he scraped up some cash and went to the track. Over time the team has reached the same level of professionalism as AXR—and with GM factory guidance, has now become dominant.

You can see why I would worry for the fate of a small-time, enthusiasts’ team like Penske.

As has been mentioned, Grand-Am’s ham-handed emasculation of Porsche after Hurley Heywood’s win in whatever year (2007-8-9? I cannot spell Google) is not going to be forgotten—ever. Roger will make sure he gets a fair fight and he is smart enough to pick the right tool for the job.

My worry is whether IMSA has the courage to invite a player like Roger Penske into the fold. We could be watching “The Penske-IMSA Sports Car Challenge Series” in two or three years—I think that is IMSA’s fear.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I will l just leave those two juxtaposed and let others sort it out.

I will say this: I’d feel a lot more sanguine about eh success of a Penske DPi venture if it was being run by a team with some racing history. A little experience, you know?

My feeling is that AXR was, from the start, a businessman’s team. Born from the wreckage of other efforts with leftover Brumos bits, the team was run like a business by a businessman from Day One. And pretty much had success from Day One as well.

WTR started as a an old racer’s team—Wayne Taylor decided he could drive for himself better than he could listen to other people telling him what to do, so he scraped up some cash and went to the track. Over time the team has reached the same level of professionalism as AXR—and with GM factory guidance, has now become dominant.

You can see why I would worry for the fate of a small-time, enthusiasts’ team like Penske.

As has been mentioned, Grand-Am’s ham-handed emasculation of Porsche after Hurley Heywood’s win in whatever year (2007-8-9? I cannot spell Google) is not going to be forgotten—ever. Roger will make sure he gets a fair fight and he is smart enough to pick the right tool for the job.

My worry is whether IMSA has the courage to invite a player like Roger Penske into the fold. We could be watching “The Penske-IMSA Sports Car Challenge Series” in two or three years—I think that is IMSA’s fear.

what

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by Matt

what

I second that sentiment

[broadrun96]

I believe that was terrible tongue in cheek statement there.