1972 Brabham BT38

[Steve Wilkinson]

In reading the articles in Motoring News once more I spotted the 'launch' piece early in February when the car was heralded as 'First MRD Production Monocoque'.

There were certainly some odd things happening with chassis numbers. It all seemed to revolve round the magical Carnet system. It appears that the Jaegermeister BT38 was allocated chassis number -1 because the team got the paperwork in first!

It also appears that there were TWO chassis turned out with number 15 on them - Team Bardhal/Motul used by Wilson Fittipaldi until his car was ready and then by Bob Wollek was the first followed by the John Coombs chassis that went to Ed Reeves after Morgan pranged his original chassis (20).

From MN I have gleaned the following:

BT38-1 : Jaegermeister
BT38-10 : Motul Rondel Racing
BT38-11 : Motul Rondel Racing
BT38-13 : Elcom
BT38-14 : Motul Rondel Racing
BT38-15 : Motul Rondel Racing (loaned initially to Team Bardahl)
BT38-15(2) : John Coombs then onto Ed Reeves
BT38-17 : Uniacke Chemicals
BT38-18 : ASCA
BT38-19 : Team Viking
BT38-20 : Ed Reeves
BT38-21 : Swiss Marlboro
BT28-22 : Jolly Club
BT38-23 : Felday
BT38-24 : ASCA
BT38-25 : Team Bardahl

The question is which if any of the above ended up with...
a) John Hart in 1977 fitted with a 1.6 BDA ?
b) Paul Edwards also in 1977 fitted with a 1.8 BDE (Edwards also ran the car in 1978) ?

[David McKinney]

I haven't checked your list against mine, Steve, but can add 12, which went to Jackie Pretorius in South Africa, and 28, Chris Meek's Tate of Leeds F/At car

[Steve Wilkinson]

BT38-22 was bought by Frank Williams mid season and Tony Trimmer drove it at Brands Hatch.

[Michael Oliver]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

In reading the articles in Motoring News once more I spotted the 'launch' piece early in February when the car was heralded as 'First MRD Production Monocoque'.

There were certainly some odd things happening with chassis numbers. It all seemed to revolve round the magical Carnet system. It appears that the Jaegermeister BT38 was allocated chassis number -1 because the team got the paperwork in first!

It also appears that there were TWO chassis turned out with number 15 on them - Team Bardhal/Motul used by Wilson Fittipaldi until his car was ready and then by Bob Wollek was the first followed by the John Coombs chassis that went to Ed Reeves after Morgan pranged his original chassis (20).

From MN I have gleaned the following:

BT38-1 : Jaegermeister
BT38-10 : Motul Rondel Racing
BT38-11 : Motul Rondel Racing
BT38-13 : Elcom
BT38-14 : Motul Rondel Racing
BT38-15 : Motul Rondel Racing (loaned initially to Team Bardahl)
BT38-15(2) : John Coombs then onto Ed Reeves
BT38-17 : Uniacke Chemicals
BT38-18 : ASCA
BT38-19 : Team Viking
BT38-20 : Ed Reeves
BT38-21 : Swiss Marlboro
BT28-22 : Jolly Club
BT38-23 : Felday
BT38-24 : ASCA
BT38-25 : Team Bardahl

The question is which if any of the above ended up with...
a) John Hart in 1977 fitted with a 1.6 BDA ?
b) Paul Edwards also in 1977 fitted with a 1.8 BDE (Edwards also ran the car in 1978) ?

Don't think this helps you with your questions at the end of the post but it might fill in some blanks:

"The ex-Graham Hill F2 Brabham BT38 has been acquired by Scottish builder Tom Ogilvy who will enter it for Tony Charnell in Libre events."
Autosport 15/11/73 p7

Also, I am intrigued by BT38-13. Surely it is quite unusual for teams to allocate this number to a chassis and who was Elcom - never heard of them?

Re BT38-12, this appears to have been sold new to Rondel Racing, rather than going to Jackie Pretorius. Pretorious bought it at the end of 1972 when Rondel advertised all four cars. In the report of the Cape South Easter Trophy race held at Killarney on Jan 6th 1973, Autosport states that Pretorious 'with the aid of Clover ice cream money, bought the ex-Pescarolo/Rondel Brabham BT38, which he fitted with a 1900 Smith engine.'

This car was then sold to John Amm, who raced it sporadically in South Africa during 1974 and entered it in events until around March 1975. After that I do not know what became of it.

Re the Peter Westbury (Felday, IIRC) car, this was advertised in Autosport 22/11/73 p57 as follows: 'Peter Westbury's 1972 Brabham BT38, which has remained unused since 1972, is now offered for sale as a rolling chassis without gearbox, making it an ideal basis for a successful hillclimb or Atlantic car. Spare (slightly damaged) tub and some wheels, tyres, etc available if required'.

[Chris Townsend]

This is my version of F2 BT38s

/1 Tate: Graham Hill 1974 Tony Charnell

/11 Rondel: Carlos Reutemann
/12 Rondel: Henri Pescarolo 1973 Jackie Pretorius [ZA] then John Amm (ZA)
/13 Francisci then to Cliff Dawson [CAN] first as Atlantic then Can Am

/14 Rondel: Schenken/Beltoise
/15 Rondel: Bob Wolleck probably 1975 Warren Pauge (SCCA: FB and then Can Am)

/16 Coombs sold to Reeves for Dave Morgan when he bent 38-20 1973 to Tom O'Leary [Having been back to MRE as p/x for a BT40] [The reference to this car as 15 is a typo in MN I think]

/17 Richard Scott then Alan Padgett [HC] AS 14.6.73 p.12
/18 Potocki/Jaussaud
/19 Tom Belsø Still for sale mid '73
/20 Reeves: Dave Morgan Rebuilt after Ring accident Went back to MRE p/x for a BT40
/21 Silvio Moser 1972 Freddy Amweg 1973 Jorg Siegrist
/22 Giancarlo Gagliardi->Tony Trimmer [Rothmans 50000] 1973 David Cole
/23 Peter Westbury for sale Nov 1973 'unused since '72'
/24 Jaussaud/Potocki, 1973 to Opert
/25 Wilson Fittipaldi

/26 Rondel: Carlos Reutemann

/27 Nelson Todd 1973 Tommy Reid?
/28 Tate of Leeds for Chris Meek 1973 Howlings [Croft FL 10.6.73] and to Richard Shardlow [HC] 1974 Alistair Douglas-Osborn Rebuilt by Pilbeam as his first? hillclimb car


Unknowns and later

2-9 are I think FB chassis sold to Opert [two appear with Nick Craw and Bert Hawthorne at Bogota in Feb 72]; other 1972 Atlantics sold to Eligio Siconolfi [CAN] and Hiroshi Fushida. Barry Fox [CAN] has a BT38B

1973 AS 25.1.73 p6 "The remaining three Rondel BT38s have been sold to Fred Opert"
These go on to John Powell, Bill O'Connor and Tom Klausler. Powell writes his off late 73.

I don't know where BT38C F3 sit in this but here are the cars I know in appearance order. Don't think any of these become Atlantics in subsequent years.

"first off" AS Peter Hull
appears with Hull Tony Brise
Debu 16.4 AIRO: Alan Jones
Debut 23.4 AIRO: Brian McGuire
Debut 23.4 AIRO: Alan McCully->Larry Sevitt: Damien Magee
Debut 23.4 Ulf Svensson
Debut Chimay Conny Andersson
Debut 27.5 Vittorio Brambilla
Debut 29.5 Chris O'Brien
Debut 14.7 Ed Patrick
Randy Lewis

[Michael Oliver]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

This is my version of F2 BT38s

/1 Tate: Graham Hill 1974 Tony Charnell

/11 Rondel: Carlos Reutemann
/12 Rondel: Henri Pescarolo 1973 Jackie Pretorius [ZA] then John Amm (ZA)
/13 Francisci then to Cliff Dawson [CAN] first as Atlantic then Can Am

/14 Rondel: Schenken/Beltoise
/15 Rondel: Bob Wolleck probably 1975 Warren Pauge (SCCA: FB and then Can Am)

/16 Coombs sold to Reeves for Dave Morgan when he bent 38-20 1973 to Tom O'Leary [Having been back to MRE as p/x for a BT40] [The reference to this car as 15 is a typo in MN I think]

/17 Richard Scott then Alan Padgett [HC] AS 14.6.73 p.12
/18 Potocki/Jaussaud
/19 Tom Belsø Still for sale mid '73
/20 Reeves: Dave Morgan Rebuilt after Ring accident Went back to MRE p/x for a BT40
/21 Silvio Moser 1972 Freddy Amweg 1973 Jorg Siegrist
/22 Giancarlo Gagliardi->Tony Trimmer [Rothmans 50000] 1973 David Cole
/23 Peter Westbury for sale Nov 1973 'unused since '72'
/24 Jaussaud/Potocki, 1973 to Opert
/25 Wilson Fittipaldi

/26 Rondel: Carlos Reutemann

/27 Nelson Todd 1973 Tommy Reid?
/28 Tate of Leeds for Chris Meek 1973 Howlings [Croft FL 10.6.73] and to Richard Shardlow [HC] 1974 Alistair Douglas-Osborn Rebuilt by Pilbeam as his first? hillclimb car


Unknowns and later

2-9 are I think FB chassis sold to Opert [two appear with Nick Craw and Bert Hawthorne at Bogota in Feb 72]; other 1972 Atlantics sold to Eligio Siconolfi [CAN] and Hiroshi Fushida. Barry Fox [CAN] has a BT38B

1973 AS 25.1.73 p6 "The remaining three Rondel BT38s have been sold to Fred Opert"
These go on to John Powell, Bill O'Connor and Tom Klausler. Powell writes his off late 73.

I don't know where BT38C F3 sit in this but here are the cars I know in appearance order. Don't think any of these become Atlantics in subsequent years.

"first off" AS Peter Hull
appears with Hull Tony Brise
Debu 16.4 AIRO: Alan Jones
Debut 23.4 AIRO: Brian McGuire
Debut 23.4 AIRO: Alan McCully->Larry Sevitt: Damien Magee
Debut 23.4 Ulf Svensson
Debut Chimay Conny Andersson
Debut 27.5 Vittorio Brambilla
Debut 29.5 Chris O'Brien
Debut 14.7 Ed Patrick
Randy Lewis

Only comment I have to make is as per my above email, chassis 1 was reported as being sold not to Tony Charnell but to Tom Ogilvy and in November 1973 not 1974...

[Rafa Reyna]

On winter of 1973 the spanish driver Eugenio Baturone bought the Brabham BT38/18 to Jaussaud.
Baturone raced the car in the Spanish Hill Climb Championship from april '73 to the end of the year.
After that he sold the Brabham to another sapnish driver, José Teixidó who avec it the years 1974 and 75.

Eugenio Baturone also bought (january 1974) the Brabham BT40/12 (ex Watson) and raced all this year and 1975.

[Chris Townsend]

That's very useful to know, because I had thought that Opert bought both the Potocki/Jaussaud cars.

Rafa - do you know much about Spanish hillclimb championship? I'm trying to find if Miguel Coarasa appears with a March 74B in 1974.

Chris

[allenbrown]

I have another possible fate for BT38/1. The 'Osprey SR-1' 2 litre sportsracer built to Can-Am spec in 1977/78 was based on "an ex-Graham Hill Formula 2 car that a Chicago racer brought over from Europe". Could this be BT38/1 or could it be one of the older Rondel BT36s that he drove in 1971. I'm off to the BT36 thread next...

Allen

[allenbrown]

I have a little more on this Osprey business. The two people who built the Osprey, Jack Finucan and Dan Hartill, bought the "ex-Hill Formula 2 Brabham BT34[sic]" from Chuck Dietrich along with some Lola T294 bodywork and a pair of FVCs. Jack recalls that Dietrich was importing quite a bit of stuff from Europe.

It would have been pretty old by this time. Any of this helpful? From reading the threads, it appears more likely to be a BT38 than a BT36.

Allen

[allenbrown]

I checked with Jack whether he really meant Chuck or could it have been Dean. Turns out it was Dean.

Anyone aware of Dean Dietrich having a F2 Brabham? Chris?

[stuartscott]

Does anyone know anything about Ulf Svensson and where any of his ex F3 cars are now? I used to follow him and Team Mum for Men in the 70s.

[sttp199]

Terry Allard of Denver, CO now owns BT38-12 which came from S Africa several years ago. I Own BT38-16 which was in fact David Morgan's ex F2 car. This car is also in Denver. I also own BT38B-18 which was an FB car originally sold in the USA. I also found a BT38 several years ago with no BT number which was fitted with a Super Vee engine and used for autocrossing. Steve Petersen Sedalia, CO

[Chris Townsend]

Steve

do you have any history connected to your 38B-18? I'm presuming from this designation that the B series had a separate numbering to the F2 cars.
For this Atlantic historian 38Bs are probably even more problematic than BT40s. Very few seem to have survived and they are mixed up with F2 cars sold for Atlantic after a season or two in Europe

Thanks
Chris

[sttp199]

Chris, I have log books from new. The car was driven in SCCA formula B initially. I'd assumed the B designation was for US Formula B. As an aside there is another BT38B car in Denver as well as a F3 BT38. In the chain of ownership on my BT38B lies entries for Steve Fossett, the fellow who just flew a plane nonstop around the earth.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Robert Willis won the MidAm Formula Atlantic Championship in 1980 in a BT38. No idea on the chassis but I throw this in to the melting pot only because its in the MidAm record books incorrectly as a BT36.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

The question is which if any of the above ended up with...
a) John Hart in 1977 fitted with a 1.6 BDA ?
b) Paul Edwards also in 1977 fitted with a 1.8 BDE (Edwards also ran the car in 1978) ?

Just hit upon the advert for the Brabham BT38 which Paul Edwards ran. In the ad the car is described as being "the ex-Tony Griffiths chassis".

Can anyone point me the chassis number now the previous owner has been identified?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Just hit upon the advert for the Brabham BT38 which Paul Edwards ran. In the ad the car is described as being "the ex-Tony Griffiths chassis".

Can anyone point me the chassis number now the previous owner has been identified?

Thanks to Richard PAge for coming up with the goods!

The Paul Edwards BT38 was Chassis number 17.

[allenbrown]

I can add another link to BT38/17. In Mason's hillclimb history (p274) it refers to Griffiths "deciding on a limited season with a 1.8 Brabham Ford BT38 which John Hinley had campaigned" for 1976.

Neither Padgett (in 1973) or Hinley (presumably in 1975) get a mention in Mason so I can't say who had the BT38 in 1974.

Mentioned in BT38s in 1974 are ADO in the ex-Shardlow BT38/28 and Tommy Reid's "Brabham-Vega BT38/40". Reid had run a BT38-Vega at Craigantlet in 1972 (p242) - do we know which car this was?

Allen

[allenbrown]

I've just noticed that there's no mention here of Kim Mather's Brabham BT38 in 1974. Another mystery?

[Doug Hart]

Hey there..

My father is John Hart (still going) and when I was little we ran a 38 on the hills, it did have a 1.6 FVA in it.. the car was modified and ran Falcon (i think) nose cone and eventually it was modified heavily to go quicker up the hills.. My brother also drove it.. It was destroyed in a crash at Shelsey Walsh, which newarly destroyed my brother !!! It was then rebuilt around a BT40 tub .. which was much better than the BT38 I was told ..

I will try and find out the chassis number or where it came from.. I think the first Anson F3 car was also a BT38 based car.. not 100% sure .. My father still owns the first ground up Anson.. and very nice too !!

I may be able to post some pictures if I can work that out !!!

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Doug Hart

Hey there..

My father is John Hart (still going) and when I was little we ran a 38 on the hills, it did have a 1.6 FVA in it.. the car was modified and ran Falcon (i think) nose cone and eventually it was modified heavily to go quicker up the hills.. My brother also drove it.. It was destroyed in a crash at Shelsey Walsh, which newarly destroyed my brother !!! It was then rebuilt around a BT40 tub .. which was much better than the BT38 I was told ..

I will try and find out the chassis number or where it came from.. I think the first Anson F3 car was also a BT38 based car.. not 100% sure .. My father still owns the first ground up Anson.. and very nice too !!

I may be able to post some pictures if I can work that out !!!

Welcome aboard Doug. Glad to hear your dad John is "still going" hopefully he is fit and well? Any info on the cars he ran in the British Sprint championship would be great and will help in resolving not only the BMSA database but also many Brabham Historians records.

[Doug Hart]

Steve..

Spoke to my dad, he cannot recall the chassis number of the BT38 .. but he knows it came from the Isle of Mann.. should narrow it down, he bought it in 74 or 5, not sure when.. (I remember going to see a Chevron B19 BMW before he bought the BT38, but that was far too expensive.. £1900 including the engine and spare wheels ... and a Lotus 30 for £1500.. hmmm)

I can get some pictures of the 38/40 and will do next time I visit .. once it was destroyed everything was transferred onto a BT40 tub, that was apparently a works tub bought from Bernie of course... this had no chassis number on he recalls .. all the parts were the same ..

Interestingly Paul Edwards was a chef .. and a very good one I am told.. I have just realised what car the BT38 that ADO ran was.. it was a highly altered car, Mike Pilbeam did the mods I believe, I remember ADO going up Shelsey in sub 27 I think.. and at the time that was pretty mad to watch .. The wing was so far behind the wheels that it was probably 1 sec behind !!

I remember Tony Griffiths and he has a BT37 formula one car.. it was ex Rollingson and was absolutely like a new pin.. I think Martyn Griffiths may of run teh ADO after he sold it .. But I do not remember Tony G having a BT38.. it is all a long time ago .. I filmed a great super 8 of Prescott in 75 that had all these cars.. just can't find it

Doug

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Doug Hart

Steve..

Interestingly Paul Edwards was a chef .. and a very good one I am told.. I have just realised what car the BT38 that ADO ran was.. it was a highly altered car, Mike Pilbeam did the mods I believe, I remember ADO going up Shelsey in sub 27 I think.. and at the time that was pretty mad to watch .. The wing was so far behind the wheels that it was probably 1 sec behind !!

Doug

Paul Edwards is still into catering - he's building a NEW hotel in the West Indes!

The ADO BT38 was initially modded by Mike Pilbeam. It was then rebuilt as Pilbeam R15 still with the Ford BD engine. When Pilbeam converted it to run the DFV it became R22. This was then copied and the MP22s were the result.

So now all we have to do is find a Manx BT38! Any offers?

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

This is my version of F2 BT38s
...
/23 Peter Westbury for sale Nov 1973 'unused since '72'

And here it is today:

http://www.carclassic.com/stock.asp?StockID=100622

I'm sure a polite enquiry would be enough to get its "full history".

Allen