Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising Live Chat  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11 Jul 2013, 06:50 (Ref:3276450)   #16
Tourer
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 2,442
Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beryl View Post
How are split Q sessions and parc ferme regulations artificial? The former is just another form of sport and a type of qualifying format. The latter is a simply a motor racing regulation.

I'd say DRS and reverse grids are what you refer to as "artificial", the rest are just aspects of motorsport. KERS and tyres are the same for everyone, it's just another aspect of the sport.
If you can justify the classic safety car because of safety, you can justify KERS for it's green image and improvement of fuel economy. It's limited to reduce costs and so every one has the same/similar benefit from KERS. If it was unlimited, there would be a KERS arms race as a more efficient KERS system would become a huge advantage in F1. The smaller teams would fall further off the pace.

KERS keeps F1 road relevant and it's limited for good reason, I see no problem there.
The split Q sessions and parc ferme the way it operates now combine to be artificial - the teams can't change springs, ratios etc on the cars so Q is often compromised artificially; teams choose to sit out Q to improve their race opportunities - two of them did this as recently as Germany. Sure, they are rules of the sport but very artificial ones, which is of course what we're discussing here.

I'm fine with KERS per se, it's the artificial restriction of the time it can operate per lap that is well, artificial. The best way to have real road relevance would be to have unlimited KERS as that would push teams to develop better and more cutting edge systems, which could then flow back into the road car world in a much better way, provide commercial opportunity for teams and go back to "racing improving the breed".

Take your point on cost containment but the time restriction is most definitely artificial - it effectively produces a "push to pass" or "push to defend" system that ends up with drivers taking a punt to use it to for example keep a car behind just enough to avoid DRS. All good, that's a skill but one that the punters can't see and a very artificial form of racing.
Tourer is online now  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2013, 07:07 (Ref:3276455)   #17
Beryl
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 608
Beryl should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBeryl should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
The split Q sessions and parc ferme the way it operates now combine to be artificial - the teams can't change springs, ratios etc on the cars so Q is often compromised artificially; teams choose to sit out Q to improve their race opportunities - two of them did this as recently as Germany. Sure, they are rules of the sport but very artificial ones, which is of course what we're discussing here.

I'm fine with KERS per se, it's the artificial restriction of the time it can operate per lap that is well, artificial. The best way to have real road relevance would be to have unlimited KERS as that would push teams to develop better and more cutting edge systems, which could then flow back into the road car world in a much better way, provide commercial opportunity for teams and go back to "racing improving the breed".

Take your point on cost containment but the time restriction is most definitely artificial - it effectively produces a "push to pass" or "push to defend" system that ends up with drivers taking a punt to use it to for example keep a car behind just enough to avoid DRS. All good, that's a skill but one that the punters can't see and a very artificial form of racing.
I really don't get what you are getting at. By your definition of artificial racing, there's no such thing as non-artificial pro racing anymore. None at all.
Beryl is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2013, 07:25 (Ref:3276457)   #18
Tourer
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 2,442
Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beryl View Post
I really don't get what you are getting at. By your definition of artificial racing, there's no such thing as non-artificial pro racing anymore. None at all.
It is a fine line I guess - my original point is that safety cars really aren't particularly artificial, they're used for real reasons (most of the time) and there is a genuine need to control the field (rather than red-flagging and restarting the race which is what happened prior to the safety car system). In my view, the other items I listed are much more artificial than safety cars.

To me, F1 (teams and FIA) brought in items such as DRS, Kers with time limits, split Q combined with new parc ferme structure as artificial means to spice up a Grand Prix weekend, rather than grasping the nettle and evolving the sporting and technical regulations in a more genuine way to achieve a better competition.

You are right that they are sporting regs, I simply have said that in my view, they are more artificial than safety cars - and the whole point of this thread is that safety cars are the most artificial thing in F1 but I don't believe that to be the case.
Tourer is online now  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2013, 09:45 (Ref:3276491)   #19
Beryl
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 608
Beryl should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBeryl should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I can only agree that DRS is artificial and unneeded.

KERS is limited for the very important reasons I highlighted earlier. If KERS was unlimited, Ferrari wouldn't bat an eye to plunging 100 million euros into developing their system. The sport would eventually kill itself. Sauber is struggling as it is, F1 does not need a KERS war right now. Or probably ever.

As for the rest, it's all just there to make the racing better, just like every other racing series does on this planet. The knock-out qualifying is a very entertaining system, the best that has ever been in F1. And I still don't understand how it's artificial. What makes a single session or single lap runs more natural than knock-out qualifying? It's just another form of qualifying, no more or less natural than any other. Parc ferme gives overworked mechanics time off (and makes things more interesting during mixed-condition weekends),and though perhaps it is unneeded, it isn't taking away much from F1 either. The tires are now made fragile to make the racing interesting. It's a welcome change from the Bridgestone days where the tires were practically rocks and hardly wore out. Now it creates more overtaking and strategy is more variable. Good. And since all tires wear out too, it's hardly "artificial". Tire wear is a spectrum and the current tires are near one end of it, but it's still on that spectrum.

But safety cars? The FIA could use the same system they use in Dubai, where during caution periods a speed limiter is activated on all cars. Or something else. The safety car is a natural thing, but it affects the racing much much more than anything "artificial". In Germany, the safety car gave big opportunities to Kimi and Webber that they otherwise would not have had. The "artificial" elements are the same for everyone, so they become "natural" in a way. A safety car stands out unnaturally because of how drastically it can alter a race.
Beryl is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2013, 11:13 (Ref:3276518)   #20
Marbot
Retired
20KPINAL
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,897
Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!
I'm reasonably happy that 2014 will see things like KERS (ERS-K, as it will be known then) are given more freedom with regard to power output and length of time in which they can be deployed during a single lap. I don't think that energy recovery systems are artificial in any way.
Marbot is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2013, 11:23 (Ref:3276526)   #21
Tourer
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 2,442
Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beryl View Post
I can only agree that DRS is artificial and unneeded.
As for the rest, it's all just there to make the racing better, just like every other racing series does on this planet.

But safety cars? The FIA could use the same system they use in Dubai, where during caution periods a speed limiter is activated on all cars. Or something else. The safety car is a natural thing, but it affects the racing much much more than anything "artificial". In Germany, the safety car gave big opportunities to Kimi and Webber that they otherwise would not have had. The "artificial" elements are the same for everyone, so they become "natural" in a way. A safety car stands out unnaturally because of how drastically it can alter a race.
As I said, I agree that the measures discussed are there to make racing better, agree with them or not. It's a question of how artificial they are and in my view they are but I take your point.

Agree completely that the sc can impact the race significantly - I don't agree with you that the "Dubai solution" would necessarily be the answer for F1 but that's another discussion - with a lot of detail in it. The point of this thread is not about what impacts the race more but what is most artificial and in my view, the safety car is not the most artificial thing in F1 and is less artificial than the items you and I have been discussing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marbot View Post
I'm reasonably happy that 2014 will see things like KERS (ERS-K, as it will be known then) are given more freedom with regard to power output and length of time in which they can be deployed during a single lap. I don't think that energy recovery systems are artificial in any way.
I agree, it's the restriction on the amount of time it can be used as a power source per lap that I consider to be artificial.
Tourer is online now  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2013, 11:33 (Ref:3276536)   #22
Marbot
Retired
20KPINAL
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,897
Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
I agree, it's the restriction on the amount of time it can be used as a power source per lap that I consider to be artificial.
There will still be a limit, but that limit will be much more difficult to achieve.
Marbot is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2013, 11:35 (Ref:3276539)   #23
Tourer
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 2,442
Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marbot View Post
There will still be a limit, but that limit will be much more difficult to achieve.
Now that sounds much more like the technical challenge that is part of F1 and is a good thing.
Tourer is online now  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2013, 17:40 (Ref:3276658)   #24
Scooter185
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
United States
Connecticut
Posts: 364
Scooter185 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourer View Post
The split Q sessions and parc ferme the way it operates now combine to be artificial - the teams can't change springs, ratios etc on the cars so Q is often compromised artificially; teams choose to sit out Q to improve their race opportunities - two of them did this as recently as Germany. Sure, they are rules of the sport but very artificial ones, which is of course what we're discussing here.

I'm fine with KERS per se, it's the artificial restriction of the time it can operate per lap that is well, artificial. The best way to have real road relevance would be to have unlimited KERS as that would push teams to develop better and more cutting edge systems, which could then flow back into the road car world in a much better way, provide commercial opportunity for teams and go back to "racing improving the breed".

Take your point on cost containment but the time restriction is most definitely artificial - it effectively produces a "push to pass" or "push to defend" system that ends up with drivers taking a punt to use it to for example keep a car behind just enough to avoid DRS. All good, that's a skill but one that the punters can't see and a very artificial form of racing.
Why does F1 need to have road relevance? That should be what sports car racing is for, and LMP1 is quickly becoming the test bed for road relevant tech.
Scooter185 is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2013, 19:55 (Ref:3276717)   #25
JeremySmith
Race Official
Veteran
 
JeremySmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
United Kingdom
Austin Texas
Posts: 11,303
JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!
I don't believe that F1 is, or will be in the future road relevant at all, or needs to be for that matter ...
JeremySmith is offline  
__________________
McLaren Honda F1 2015... Go Jenson Go Fernando...
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2013, 22:26 (Ref:3276773)   #26
Tourer
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Tourer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Sideways
Posts: 2,442
Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter185 View Post
Why does F1 need to have road relevance? That should be what sports car racing is for, and LMP1 is quickly becoming the test bed for road relevant tech.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremySmith View Post
I don't believe that F1 is, or will be in the future road relevant at all, or needs to be for that matter ...
Agree generally with both of you - Beryl referred to KERS as being "road relevant" & I simply elaborated on that.

In general terms, F1 is not about road relevance, it's about the top of the tree for outright performance, competition etc. Having said that, there ARE some areas that have proved to (eventually) be road relevant. For example the programmable engine management systems and semi auto gearbox systems that were cutting edge when introduced to F1 are now pretty much standard or common in road cars.
Tourer is online now  
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2013, 22:39 (Ref:3276778)   #27
Marbot
Retired
20KPINAL
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
United Kingdom
Posts: 22,897
Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!Marbot is going for a new lap record!
F1's task would appear to be to find the best way of getting the most out of energy recovery, energy storage and energy use. And also to get the best out of a small capacity turbocharged petrol engine.

These are the sort of vehicles that you can already buy from most European car dealerships. The hope is that the majority of cars will be solely battery powered during the next decade.

No doubt about it - the future of road cars is electric.
Marbot is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2013, 23:57 (Ref:3276801)   #28
chunder
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
England
Stevenage
Posts: 7,815
chunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Cant believe anyone hasn't mentioned Pinkham!
chunder is online now  
__________________
This used to be such a vibrant place. Unless you are Oz or like 24h races whats the point now?
Quote
Old 12 Jul 2013, 01:24 (Ref:3276828)   #29
JeremySmith
Race Official
Veteran
 
JeremySmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
United Kingdom
Austin Texas
Posts: 11,303
JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!JeremySmith is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marbot View Post
F1's task would appear to be to find the best way of getting the most out of energy recovery, energy storage and energy use. And also to get the best out of a small capacity turbocharged petrol engine.

These are the sort of vehicles that you can already buy from most European car dealerships. The hope is that the majority of cars will be solely battery powered during the next decade.

No doubt about it - the future of road cars is electric.
I really like your post...I read it several times before typing this reply...

The Turbo charging plus energy recovery is the way forward because we know that they can wind up that engine to produce whatever horsepower they want, and why not recover as much energy as possible on the electrical front, that is what the turbo is doing...

The second part of your post I agree with IF they can make the whole car one giant solar panel and at the same time make it look like a C Class Mercedes...
JeremySmith is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Jul 2013, 04:35 (Ref:3276860)   #30
Scooter185
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
United States
Connecticut
Posts: 364
Scooter185 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marbot View Post
F1's task would appear to be to find the best way of getting the most out of energy recovery, energy storage and energy use. And also to get the best out of a small capacity turbocharged petrol engine.

These are the sort of vehicles that you can already buy from most European car dealerships. The hope is that the majority of cars will be solely battery powered during the next decade.

No doubt about it - the future of road cars is electric.
I disagree that it will be fully electric. I think we'll see selectable hybrid, i.e. gas/diesel rwd, hybrid all wheel, electric fwd. I think we'll see "zero emission" areas pop up in cities and such, but fossil fuel will remain for long distance.

Until hydrogen gets the kinks worked out.
Scooter185 is offline  
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Team] Sauber F1 in trouble 321Go Formula One 166 7 Nov 2013 16:29
F1 Safety Cars / Medical Cars Mark Stevens Formula One 8 21 May 2004 19:10
Artificial Wet Races Hobson Formula One 6 1 Apr 2001 22:18


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 22:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2016 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.