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Old 29 Jul 2013, 11:26 (Ref:3283238)   #16
bella
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only if it's enforced consistently and not as an excuse to penalise someone.
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 11:42 (Ref:3283248)   #17
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Originally Posted by mikuni View Post
Speaking of squealing like a girl, who heard Vettels message when Kimi didn't just move over and let him past? I actually laughed out loud.
Me too. Great fun really bearing in mind that some people have the pair slated as potential team mates......
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 12:02 (Ref:3283258)   #18
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I didn't think Romain deserved a penalty at all for either incident. Unfortunately he's turned into a bit of a marked man due to many of his previous incidents and this is affecting the way in which any such racing incident is viewed. Similar to Hamilton during 2011 where he made mistakes but was also punished for mild errors. Fair play to Massa for suggesting he thought the penalty was totally unfair on Romain too.

I think Romain has potential to be a very good and exciting driver in the sport. We are in danger of suppressing his talents because he is too scared to make a move or race. I don't want to see a driver pulling out of moves or be intimidated by other drivers because he thinks he'll get a penalty. The stewards need to evaluate their approach and start introducing some consistency IMO. Its a big as I know.
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 12:15 (Ref:3283264)   #19
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I agree that Grosjean drove a good & exciting race. The problem is (and the point is) that he couldn't have made either move stick at a track like Monaco where he would have ended up in the barriers.
Surely that's what the 'four wheels off' rule is all about?
That argument is pointless though. If he was at Monaco, would he have even tried that sort of move (and yes, I remember what he did into Tabac during the 2009 GP2 race).

As Bella said, the Button incident was a racing incident. **** happens when you're racing. F1 has become the litigious society where everything is black and white, there is always someone to blame. Penalties never used to be awarded for such a thing. It was also, six of one, half dozen of the other. Button could have backed out, Grosjean could have given him more space.

Unfortunately, Grosjean's reputation precedes him.
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 12:22 (Ref:3283266)   #20
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jsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjsTrecu should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Both penalties were arguable, and I liked a lot how he drove and the overtake on Massa was great. My favourite of the race.
But with his history it's surprising he got punished, maybe not totally fair, but I think until he manage to do a dozen of races or so without causing any accident this trend will continue.


As for Vettel it was funny yeah, don't know what he was thinking...
Maybe he tried to emulate what Fernando "you always have to give space (to me)" Alonso did to him in Monza.
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 12:32 (Ref:3283270)   #21
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Speaking of squealing like a girl, who heard Vettels message when Kimi didn't just move over and let him past? I actually laughed out loud.
It really was a bizarre moment...
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 12:33 (Ref:3283271)   #22
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As Bella said, the Button incident was a racing incident. **** happens when you're racing. F1 has become the litigious society where everything is black and white, there is always someone to blame. Penalties never used to be awarded for such a thing. It was also, six of one, half dozen of the other. Button could have backed out, Grosjean could have given him more space.
i think the button thing strayed into the "legislating for the consequences not the action" "why do we issue penalties in the first place" existential territory as well. which is a fair pointer that the flippin' thing was wrong.

totally agree about the blame and black and white comment too. there is no common sense being applied, and i still think transparency is an issue.

however, the way they worked through and explained the logic behind not issuing a penalty for grosjeans wonky floor in qualifying was absolutely superb. now they just need to apply that common sense and logic to driving penalties. if they did, there wouldn't be the concerns with consistency.
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 12:38 (Ref:3283272)   #23
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pauln should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridpauln should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Off-track is off-track and it's against the rules.

Surely the answer is for stewards to apply consistently by giving penalties to all offenders, not by letting Grosjean off because they've let others off.

A case here for at least one member of the stewards to be a permanent appointment to ensure consistency?
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 14:01 (Ref:3283319)   #24
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steve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
He did not deserve one for his excellent pass on Massa.

His move on Button was a typical clumsy Grosjean move. He had the overtake done, yet for some bizarre reason, instead of breaking and turning into the corner and making the move stick, he ran Button off the road, and then cut the chicane. It wasn't the worst move in the history of F1, but it's no surprise to see him penalised for it. It's almost like he no awareness of what is happening around him - something that Coulthard has alluded to in commentary a number of times.
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 14:23 (Ref:3283325)   #25
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2 issues.

First Massa, yes 4 wheels over, but only because Massa didn't leave him anywhere else to go. What happened to the leaving a cars width rule?

Second, Button on the outside in his cars width, Grosjean's up inside and moves ahead. Surely it's the driver who is ahead to choose his breaking and turn in point. I believe the only reason Grosjean's straight lined the second part was due to the contact . This was a racing incident.

Hungary saw Grosjean penalised on previous reputation. This ruined Grosjean's race and possibly cost him championship points that would contribute to his possibly gaining the lead Lotus seat next year.
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 14:55 (Ref:3283330)   #26
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I don't have a problem with the penalties that have been enforced. What I do have a problem with is the ones that haven't. If it is really too dangerous to put armco on exits (which pretty much means the wall of champions is out), then it's got to be the governing body that defines the track, not the drivers.
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 15:09 (Ref:3283332)   #27
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I have to say when watching the on-board footage of Romain over-taking Massa, for me it has to be one of the best overtakes this season so far. To carry the speed into that bend and make it stick takes some bottle. Kudos to Romain there I think. I hope he continues to drive at this level and cuts out some of the clumsiness we see elsewhere.
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 15:54 (Ref:3283344)   #28
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steve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Second, Button on the outside in his cars width, Grosjean's up inside and moves ahead. Surely it's the driver who is ahead to choose his breaking and turn in point. I believe the only reason Grosjean's straight lined the second part was due to the contact . This was a racing incident.
You would be right, but for the fact that Grosjean "turned out" rather than "turned in".

Some drivers need reminding that the car you are overtaking does not evaporate into thin air when they have disappeared from your field of vision.
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 16:15 (Ref:3283350)   #29
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Some drivers need reminding that the car you are overtaking does not evaporate into thin air when they have disappeared from your field of vision.
they really do have an expectation that the passed car should slow down and get out of ytheir way to make it easier for them to get back onto the clean line.

im fine with it as a racing incident but its becoming harder and harder (if not impossible) to look at Grosjean tactics in isolation from all of his other incidents.

the Massa pass is a little less clear cut for me. great move but to pull it off he needed to use too much of the run off. would he have tried the move if there was a barrier there?

sadly i think he would have but that speaks to my belief that RG makes some questionable decisions. he's got speed no doubt but poor judgement imo.
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Old 29 Jul 2013, 17:43 (Ref:3283379)   #30
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werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
There is no need for a barrier at the exit of corner 4. Just a metre of grass between the kerbs and the paved runoff, graveltrap or whatever is best to prevent cars from hitting solid objects at high speed, and we would not have had this discussion. RG would, due to lack of grip on the grass, go even wider, and would need to slow down to get back on the track across the the grass just behind Massa.
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