Letter to Sir Jackie Stewart

[wiggles]

sweet

[Stephen Green]

Can't get to the scanner so I will type it for you:

Dear Stephen,

I received your latter dated 30th August concerning the marshal's facilities at this year's Silverstone Grand Prix, and your other comments regarding marshalling at other circuits around the country.

I will bring your letter to the attention of the RAC MSA as well as Octagon. As you know, the MSA is responsible for governing the British Grand Prix and the sport in general in this country. Octagon is part of the infrastructure of the United Kingdom being responsible for a total of five tracks in the UK, including the leasing of Silverstone.

The facilites I know had to be changed around at Silverstone this year for logistical reasons due to the new raods and car park arrangements. As you are probably aware, the BRDC itself is not directly involved with the marshals but of course we do occasionally run BRDC managed events, and I am also copying our correspondence to Stuart Higgs, who is Director of Racing at the BRDC.

I promise you that I will get your letter to the right people and see what can be done to improve the facilities that you speak of. Obviously every racing driver in the world appreciates what you do, and I am sure also that the other bodies within our sport feel the same.

Please give me a little time and I will do what I can.

Thank you again for your letter.

Yours sincerely.......

[Tony_J]

Stephen
Its a start and seemingly a positive one. If there is one area overlooked it is perhaps BMP etc who oversee the non-Octagon circuits. Obviously the MSA needs to be on-board, but their seeming ineffectiveness in this area must be borne in mind. Despite the carp a good & prompt response.
Tony

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Tony_J
If there is one area overlooked it is perhaps BMP etc who oversee the non-Octagon circuits.

BMP is the body which promotes TOCA, F3/GT & BSB. Shareholders in BMP are the ACU, MSA & the circuit owners. The ACU & the MSA hold ordinary shares, the circuit owners hold redeemable shares; only the owners of redeemable shares have the right to attend & vote at general meetings. Since the Silverstone takeover Octagon has had a majority holding of redeemable shares.

Although BMP is effectively controlled by Octagon, as the promoter of the UK's three major championship series it is an influential organisation; as Kaybee has said in another thread, the treatment of marshals at the BMP-organised BSB meetings is totally different to the way we are treated at TOCA & F3/GT meetings.

At BSB meetings marshals receive a £5 lunch allowance on the first day of the meeting & packed lunches on the second & third days; BSB (Racesafe) marshals are also supplied with overalls at no cost other than a one-off £10 joining fee. Compare that with the way marshals are treated at TOCA & F3/gt meetings......at the Oulton F3/GT meetings the chief marshal even had to fight to get copies of the programme magazine for the marshals!

[Tony_J]

Dave
Thanks for the update on BMP. On the face of it there seems little point in either the ACA or MSA being shareholders as they can neither attend nor vote at meetings so what influence can they bring to bear?
Perhaps BSB marshals get 'preferential treatment' because those meetings generate such large crowds, hence income to the circuit and promoters. Car races on the other hand seem rather poorly supported. TOCA used to get excited over 20K-30K attendance figures. I suspect major bike meetings well exceed those numbers.
Tony J

[paul.hickman]

Stephen - having spoken with you over the weekend at Goodwood (what a fantastic three days!!) I very much look forward to reading the reply received from Sir Jackie. Despite (or maybe in spite of) my interventions following the Silverstone campsite debacle in July not a lot appears to be moving forward...

Let's build on what you and others have started and provided we all speak with an objective voice and balanced argument we should be listened to and hopefully afforded the respect due to professional volunteers.

[Tony_J]

Paul.H
What I find most galling is the £Ms spent on revamping the circuit roads internal & external + car parks etc and yet the marshals were treated as if they didn't exist or should be grateful for being let in for free.

[Stephen Green]

Paul,

I posted the reply about 5 posts above this one.

Great to see you at the weekend and yes, it was a superb meeting, my first Revival meeting. Guess who will be going back again next year!

[paul.hickman]

Stephen

Thanks - your posting now seen - clearly my brain is in lag mode following the weekend (probably the after effects of exploding polystyrene at the chicane)!

Sir J's reply is pretty much a 'holding' one although with the opportunity to get back to him after a 'little time'. So a follow up letter from you around mid October would presumably be in order?

[paul.hickman]

Tony_J

Yep - I agree and despite my meeting with the Octagon circuits manager over that weekend and offering him a positive 'win' opportunity, nothing changed or has changed since.

Interestingly though from the responses I had to an earlier request for 'perks' at the worlds grand prix, it seems as though marshals get pretty much what we get - but of course the way they feel they are treated may differ somewhat...

[Stephen Green]

Thanks Paul, I will diarise the end of October for a follow up letter.

[rick vaux]

Thanks for that Stephen.
Its` nice to hear his thoughts redarding our plight, but i just cant` bring myself to believe the bit about every racing driver in the world and appreciation.....
Things in my humble oppinion will never change, due to the fact there are far too many chiefs and far too many indians....

I am off to re-proof my jacket and trousers, and to organise my lunch for next weekend...

[Stephen Green]

At least the letter proves to people at the top that all is not 'roses' in the garden they like to call motor racing. Lets hope that we do achieve something from the letter, we have nothing to lose at least!

[andrew_powell98]

It is interesting to read some responces to this and again Stephen it's great that someone has stood up for the marshals to be counted. My worry is ( and I don't think them upstairs have spotted it yet) that without marshals they could not run races. Our numbers are dwindling and something needs to be done. I can see a time if we are not carefull that we will get posts under manned.

[paul.hickman]

Andrew

Several marshals have stood 'up to be counted'- it's just that no-one thus far has taken any real notice and addressed the legitimate concerns of those 'on the bank'.

Don't be under any illusion, 'them upstairs' have spotted it - and do realise that posts are under staffed. Whilst we may not agree with it, there are other ways of ensuring sufficient coverage to respond to incidents on the track.

[rick vaux]

Good point Paul...are we thinking along the lines of fast response ve-hickles as used in the good old us of a...
Is the rumour true, that the marshalls who stood up to be counted now prop up the bridge outside Silverstone

[Tony_J]

One problem we have is what is undermanning? I think the Blue Books now states posts to be 'adequately manned' - pick a number. As long as organisers manage to muddle thro' a meeting without serious incident then post will have been adequately manned. As far as fast response vehicles are concerned - on a banked short oval OK, on a two mile plus, road circuit I'm not so sure.
I may be mistaken but weren't there shots of a fast reponse team lolling about eating ice cream etc the day Ayrton died?

[paul.hickman]

I'm not advocating the use of 'fast response ve-hickles' - merely highlighting one of the options available to those who may be addressing the present shortfall of marshals. Indeed, as an observer of some years standing this is not a way that I would wish to go.

As for the good old 'blue book' then yes, Tony_j, you are right - and again as an observer etc., I am very uncomfortable with that too!

As for the bridge outside Silverstone, Rick - a concrete overcoat has been seen in the past to be effective....

[rick vaux]

Dont` know bout that tony, you king of the jungle you...
I have only noticed a shortage in staff either at Brands on the GP circuit, or usually on Saturday of a two day meet.
But then again, you may find that some of the people doing a sat , are more experienced than the people that can only do a sun, bit of controvercy there i dont care though..
Its what i have found though, with only a few , say three of you covering two posts, there is a greater feeling of relyance from one another, you know your job, end of story.
I have been on posts that are over manned, there has been a big incident, the teams, usually working in two`s have not workrd out what each other is doing, and it looks a complete shambles, no fire cover, the driver not dealt with, and me as a flaggy shouting at them to get to the driver as his chin has just hit his chest...

I suppose what i`m saying in not to clear a terms, is that i would rather not have enough marshalls to man each post, but the quality is far better, than have trainees with a red badge at all posts....

[rick vaux]

my last post hasn`t really come out as it should of done, but Paul, as an obs, you will understand what i mean..

[paul.hickman]

Thanks for your post Rick – I’ve read it a couple of times and I think I know what you are getting at – perhaps it was just the lateness of the hour…

The key to successful incident management is teamwork. The expectations (strategies) of the observer should be made explicit during the morning briefing with the tactics for dealing with incidents – and who will deal with those incidents – left to the IO (or where there is no IO, the team leader appointed for the day). All members of the team will thus know their role no matter how experienced or otherwise they might be and should they be unclear feel that they can ask a question and get a polite answer!

This approach overcomes the over manning scenario but not that where there are insufficient marshals. That becomes a judgement call for the observer – and one on which the Clerk of the Course will base his decision. This takes us back to the purpose of this thread! – if we haven’t sufficient marshals and cannot attract more and retain those we have, the MSA and Clubs will need to look at providing alternative safety arrangements…

Having re-read the above it seems a little heavy for this time of the morning – sorry – but as those who have worked with me over the years know my philosophy is that we all volunteer as marshals to have fun – whilst performing our respective duties to the best of our professional abilities!

[Stephen Green]

It would be interesting to hear from a few drivers as to whether they would prefer rapid response vehicles or men and women in orange to attend their initial needs, should they be unfortunate to leave the race track and visit the scenery. We are all making the assumption that orange (or black, sorry Silverstone guys) overals are theie preferred first contact post accident?

[paul.hickman]

I agree Stephen – but the majority of incidents probably would not require an intervention vehicle even though the racecar has come to a pretty abrupt halt. We all know that drivers do strange things – but on a serious note – the adrenaline in the body following a shunt does cause bizarre behaviour – and we probably can relate to drivers jumping out of their cars and trying to run across the track in the face of oncoming traffic. Orange (black) chappies attend instantly to drivers – intervention vehicles by definition do not.

Back to your original point – driver feedback please!!

[PipSqueak111]

As both an orange chappie and someone that drives on track, I for one would much rather have marshals on-hand as opposed to a rapid-response vehicle.

Just this Thursday, I almost put my car on its roof at the chicane at Curborough sprint course. One of our chaps was off the banking on the straight within seconds to come to my rescue, and was at the car before a radio message would have been able to be given to a r-r vehicle and for it to get rolling. Now Curborough is a very small track, and even here, if I was injured or my car was on fire, I would want to see those reassuring orange figures heading for me, not be sitting there wondering why the r-r vehicle hasn't got here yet. People can stop breathing or cars can catch fire far too quickly for us to not have marshals on posts in my opinion.

Phill

[rick vaux]

Thanks for the reply Paul, my chatter was a little odd, to say the least. I will put it down to the third bottle of passing my lips....