Which series - pathway to F1?

[wannab-aracer]

I have become confused recently with the amount of grids forming below F1.

I'm sure this would have been discussed in other threads, but It would be good to know what sort of pecking order you fellow TTers see as the best training ground for breaking into F1.

I mean, you have Gp2 and Wsr 3.5, widely regarded as the main feeder series for F1. But with the amount of series to choose from how do we know that the best drivers are pitting their wits against each other.

With the new kid on the block F2 catorgory claiming to be a feeder series to F1 along side the various traditional F3 routes, and with the likes of A1gp and Superleague offerings

Personally and knowing it is unrealistic I would like to see some sort of Winter mini championship or shoot out, of all the champions of say GP2 WSR F3's with a seat in F1 up for grabs.

[duke_toaster]

Karts to F Renault to F3 to WSR to GP2.

The new Formula Two (doesn't deserve the number 2) could be a WSR alternative - or possibly a F3 slot one, Superleague Formula is generally for drivers finding it hard to get GP2 seats.

The situation is confusing, I'd rather WSR and GP2 were replaced with multi-chassis and multi-engine Formula (Three) Turbo and Formula 2, as well as a single Formula 4, but that's a totally different thing!

[wannab-aracer]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

The situation is confusing, I'd rather WSR and GP2 were replaced with multi-chassis and multi-engine Formula (Three) Turbo and Formula 2, as well as a single Formula 4, but that's a totally different thing!

Agreed, in a perfect world if we could rip the book up and start again, The obvious motorsport ladder for single seaters would be a F4, F3, F2 ....

Before the likes of GP2 and WSR it was generally regarded as a F3 champion the next step was F1 because you had raced against the best at the tier below F1.

I'd like to see the likes of Hülkenberg, Alguersuari, Van der Garde and Pantano etc competing against each other.

[courageous]

Throw in Indycar, Le Mans & DTM as a realistic step before (and after for that matter) F1.

It is more important to be noticed than to be driving the right cars - I am not suggesting he will ever get into F1, but take David Rigon (sp); winning superleague has done more for his career than being top 10 in GP2 ever would.

[ivanalesi]

Originally Posted by wannab-aracer

Agreed, in a perfect world if we could rip the book up and start again, The obvious motorsport ladder for single seaters would be a F4, F3, F2 ....

Yeah, someone, somehow must do this! We may know it, but sponsors and public find this ladder very very confusing.

[Asa]

I think we will always have multiple series, this is to allow the losers of the main series (GP2 at the moment) to find other losers to beat and make himself look good.

All these series will also give the suppliers work to do and orders to fulfill.

[Jackman]

Until driver managers can be convinced that putting their drivers up against the best competition is good for them there will be loads of different series, sponsorship permitting.

Although GP3 will throw the cat among the pigeons in that respect in 2010 by depleting all the F3/WSR/F2 fields of much of the talent.

[Mak]

Originally Posted by Jackman

Until driver managers can be convinced that putting their drivers up against the best competition is good for them there will be loads of different series, sponsorship permitting.

Although GP3 will throw the cat among the pigeons in that respect in 2010 by depleting all the F3/WSR/F2 fields of much of the talent.

Probably a better idea is just to get rid of all the so called driver managers (baby sitters). All they do is take running budget away from teams and making it hard for them to do a proper job. Pretty well excusively do no positive service for the industry or drivers they supposedly represent.

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by Jackman

Until driver managers can be convinced that putting their drivers up against the best competition is good for them there will be loads of different series, sponsorship permitting.

Although GP3 will throw the cat among the pigeons in that respect in 2010 by depleting all the F3/WSR/F2 fields of much of the talent.

Will GP3 use a Dallara chassis??? I'm afraid many would feel that the company will stab the own series (F3) when they made success, where they now are virtual de facto spec-chassis providers.

[Asa]

With the current poor economy, probably one or two series will not survive.

[chunterer]

So we might end up with something simple and recogniseable like we always used to have representing a ladder to stardom?

I guess that depending on ones opinion we will have a route which is basically karting - F Ford/BMW - F Renault/GP3/F Master then:
2 series sitting between F3 and GP2 (F2/WSR)
or, 3 series between F Renault and GP2 (F3/F2/WSR)
or, (getting tedious already!) 1 series between F3/F2 level and GP2 (WSR)

Erm.....

[duke_toaster]

Ideally we'd just have drivers going Karts ==> F4 ==> F3 ==> F2 ==> F1. However not all of the steps in the middle are superfluous (A1GP and Superleague do have their merits.

However there is something to be said for a step like Renault World Series between F3 and F2. What the rules for F2 and F4 should be is another issue!

[runshaw]

The classic way used to be Formula Ford- F3- F3000- F1. Now it isn't clear cut at all.

I would say now the ideal route is: FR- F3- GP2- F1, provided how good you are. F2 is yet to be seen. Formula Ford/ Renault World Series seem to be more overlooked in favour of the 3 I just mentioned nowadays by F1 teams (with a few exceptions).

[Go_For_Pole]

The ladder might seem complicated but let's do a practical exercise: how many drivers have been confirmed in F.BMW and how many in Euro FR? How many in Euro F3 and how many in IFM? How many in F2 and how many in WSR? Ok, the last one in terms of quantity might be marginal but in terms of quality it's clear cut.

[wannab-aracer]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

The ladder might seem complicated but let's do a practical exercise: how many drivers have been confirmed in F.BMW and how many in Euro FR? How many in Euro F3 and how many in IFM? How many in F2 and how many in WSR? Ok, the last one in terms of quantity might be marginal but in terms of quality it's clear cut.

It's a good point, but again I suppose I'm thinking of "in an ideal world". There will be one or two drivers involved in other series that do not compete against each other, that might make an "all in one championship" more clear cut of who is the best of best and not best of the rest.

As it stands I'd agree with runshaw that this route provides the right minerals and background knowledge for moving into F1.

If the new F2 can attract quality drivers in the future, at the amount of budget needed against the costs of F3 GP2 WSR, I'm glad this will put talented drivers back on the radar, rather than drivers who have the deepest pockets.

[boygeorge]

Slightly off topic I know but I am intrigued by the time spent to reach the upper levels of motor sport compared to other competitive sports. The actual time spent competing and training is much less than many other sports.


I am presuming that the average serious competitor at say FF level would have about 15 meetings per season plus a similar number of practice days (allowing 3 hours track time for practice and 2 hours for each race weekend, including practice, a total of 75+ hours for a season. In addition there should be at least 10 hours per week physical training. This would compare with say swimming, a sport I know, where where training would take 120-150 hours per month for a serious, but non olympic standard competitor. Allowing for a fast track of about 4 years to knock on the door of F1 and increasing seat time each year this would give no more than 500 hours seat time before reaching F1 ( I am sure Kimi would have much less before F1!)


I know that seat time is the only way to develop track craft but from my observations most competitors would be involved on no more than 5-10 passing inidents per race and this seems to decrease the higher the level. It would seem tha many F1 competitors are no more than mobile chicanes and the number of passes they make in a season could be counted on one hand


Presuming one has the requisite physical abilities it would seem to that the best way to develop spatial awareness would be either in karts both racing and practicing at a much lower rate per hour and categories such a FVee or
FF1600 with big fields and at the same time practicing with a good coach in a category with more power, perhaps an old F3000 or an old WSR car. It would be possible to compete in both Fvee and FF similtaneously for well under 30k (more would be learnt as mid field runner than at the front of the field )This potentially would have somone ready to a higher category such as WSR or P2 in 12-18 months with a total outlay of less than 100k.


Not interested in doing so myself but interested in others thoughts about fasttracking.

[runshaw]

That's an interesting read boygeorge but i'm not quite sure of what point you are trying to make. You compare the time training and competing for motor sport to other sports; fair enough but motor sport is completely different to most other sports! I don't really see the need for the comparison.

500 hours seat time is a very general assumption, it varies completely for different drivers getting to F1. Like you say, Kimi had nowhere near that amount of time, similar to Button, but both were obviously good enough; they had the qualities it took to be an F1 driver without 'honing' their skills for many more years. If you have raw talent, you don't necessarily need to spend 3 or 4 years in F3 for instance, which many people do. Take someone like Alvaro Parente, he has been racing in junior categories for years with good success, and he has actually competed in more motor races than Jenson Button overall. It completely varies.

As you say seat time is the best way to develop, and some drivers take many years and hours to become f1 standard, but others don't. Sebastien Buemi has reached F1 this year after 5 years in lower formulae, which doesn't sound a long time. But he has raced in FBMW, Formula Renault Eurocup plus NEC, F3 and GP2- thats plenty of time and race starts.

With regard to competing in FF and FVee, you won't see drivers stepping out of those series into WSR or F2. You learn a lot, but a driver with no experience of aerodynamic grip and g-force will not step into a WSR race seat from FF. I don't think you would learn more in the midfield either; there's a reason why the same few drivers are at the front of the field (also you won't get many drivers in the midfield of FVee graduating to the highest levels of the sport).

[Richard B]

If I can go slightly off topic too........
The route to F1 stardom appears to be somewhat clouded by the FF, F3, WSR ,GP2 A1 GP or whatever path you choose.
Clearly the trick is to have a father,brother or uncle who competed in F1.
Of course changing your name by deed poll is a far more economic use of budget!