Just what IS a jump start?

[RaceTime]

Maybe someone can figure out what is going on in the vast expanses of open space collectively called Race Control?

FIA and CAMS state that once the red light has come one - NO MOVEMENT of a vehicle may take place - if a vehicle DOES move then a Jumped Start has taken place and the vehicle is to be penalised. The V8 rules make no mention of this in any way, therefore NCR's then FIA rules apply. Note that there is not and never has been any mention of the words 'gain advantage' in any rules applicable to jumped starts.

Now - given the propensity of a few officials to penalise HRT over the years for the movement of their cars by as much as 5 cm (believe it!!!) and give a stop/go, why wasn't Marcus Ambrose penalised for his movement over the control line AFTER the red light came on in Race 1 at Winton? (And yes - I have reviewed the tape for the start, the light comes on and then he took off, stopped and waited for the red light to go out).

I ask because it has become so patently obvious recently that the decisions being made by key V8 Championship 'officials' are so inconsistent that I wouldn't trust them to make a cup of coffee for me any more - I would never know what I would be getting.

Anyone else have any (serious) thoughts on this? Pepsi??

[Flaggie]

all I could think was that he hadn't broken the white line. As I understand the AVESCO rules, on the line's ok.

Either that, or someone saw sense and decided that a 5 cm jumpstart wasnt going to make a big difference.

[RaceTime]

I re-read the V8 regs and they don not mention movement at the start at all.

The NCR's are quite specific - one the red light comes on there can be NO MOVEMENT whatsoever. These are in line with the FIA regs as well.

However, I think you will find he did go over the white line as their front wheels have to be placed directly on the white line to start with!

[Amaroo Park]

Unfortunatly Race a jump start is whatever Tim wants it to be at the time..........

[RaceTime]

Don;t I know it - biased as he wants to be one day, eyes wide shut the next

[Dazz]

Hey come on guys poor old Marcus has enough of a handicap with his pit crew being slow without panalising him for making a bad start as well

I do agree it might be another case of no consistancy but maybe they decided that he did stop before the green and that he gained no advantage from it. Be that the rules or not.

Imagine the screams from the Ford supporters if he was given a panalty though, I can just hear the screaming now about how they want HRT to win every race and penalised Ambrose for looking like winning!

Having said that, and I will admit to being a Skaife fan (ok so shoot me, throw me to the Lions and all that) but it was great to see Marcus look like he would take the race out, only to be foiled again by HRT's brilliant stop for Bright (won't mention Skaife's shocker) and Marcus's comparitively slow stop.

This really ruined the race for Marcus and indeed Ford as I think he had more than enough speed to take out either race. Quite clearly the pit stops are not making the racing better, for the Ford teams anyway.

[Buckshot]

Didn't somebody get pinged for doing the exact same thing last year ? Was it Ingall ?

[RaceTime]

I won't disagree with what you are saying, BUT, this has now set a dangerous precadent for the future.

Teams are now going to be able to use this as a defence for no penalty being applied for what has been, up to now, a cut and dried infringement - you move, you pay the penalty.

And, to be honest, I would have loved Marcus to win one as well (any one but the ski instructor...)

[RaceTime]

Buckshot - quite a few drivers have been pinged for doing exactly this - some are quite noticeable (as Marcus' was) whilst other you have to watch a video of the wheel and overlay view of it to see how many mm's have been gained by the movement as it is put into gear.

[PEPSI]

Hi RT,

Sorry I didn't see the incident (will watch the tape later) but he may have been short of the line to start with as I am not aware of any rule requiring anything other than to not be over it.

Besides, we are not exactly in favour with the hierachy so I would hate to get Tim offside as well

[RaceTime]

LOL - basically it doesn't matter WHERE the car is when the red light comes on - if you are over the line, however, that is an automatic Out of Position penalty (Jump start) - and, as I mentioned before, once the red light comes on NO MOVEMENT whatsoever is permitted until the light goes out...

[hoffy]

If that was a jumped start, why wasn't there any protests?

[RaceTime]

Actually an easy one to answer - it is not a protestable situation - a jump start is a decision by a Judg of Fact (conversely to NOT give a jump start is also a decision by a Judge of Fact).

Unfortunately the FIA/NCR's state that a decision by a Judge of Fact cannot be protested. End of story.

Basically, what I am asking, is given the attitude of Race Control in the past and as recently as Oran Park, WHY wasn't a penalty issued? And, as I have also stated, the fact none was issued gives grounds in the future for fighting any that are dished out (Judge of Fact notwithstanding..)

[Buckshot]

So even if someone like Geoff Gretch or Garry Rodgers starting squawking about it they wouldn't have pinged him ?

[RaceTime]

Debatable.

Let me clear something up first - I am asking because it was, to me as a timekeeper, so obvious, that I astounded he was not penalised. I am not trying to have a shot at Marcus, but simply trying to understand why Race Control, who have in the past given jump start penalties to Skaife and Ingall when NO MOVEMENT EVER HAPPENED, have appeared to do nothing about it - and to confirm this, there is no mention in the list of penalties I just received from CAMS.

A jump start is the sole decision, technically, of the Judge of Fact apointed to view starts. The practice is, however, that the Race Director, Stewards and Driving Standards Officer all can and will override the JofF's decision or even make it in place of any he/she may make. This has happened on numerous occasions.

It isn't something that Joe Bloggs, as team owner, can lodge a protest about. Similarly, it is also a draconian penalty to which the JofF cannot reverse IF he is shown to be wrong - which is the reason I have disagreed with Stop/Go's and Drive Trhoughs being given for this penalty (a decision, btw, which was introduced by Tim Schenken but is NEVER mentioned in any rules or regs - it is always written as a '1 minute penalty or other penalty as the *clerk of course* may provide'

[Seton_5]

How i saw it from the track was when he moved forward the Green Flag hadn't been waved yet from the rear of the grid.So if the flag hadn't been waved yet it was deamed at ok and he got no advatage from it at all.

Just what i think

[RaceTime]

No - I checked a couple of times on the tape. The green flag has been waved, they cut to a front on shot of the grid - the red light comes on and Ambrose jumps forward, stops - the red light remains on and then goes out and the race starts. It's almost as if he was going to start when the light came on - and then realised his mistake.

If I can get the video hooked up to this machine tonight will copy that section and post it on the RaceNews web site as a small MPG

[StuiE]

Maybe it was just that he didn't get any advantage from it, as he got a bad start anyway, In CART if someone short cuts the course trying to overtake, they just let the person ahead again so that they don't get a penalty, and just keep on racing.

[RaceTime]

gtr69 - I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again - whether you get an advantage from it or not doesn't matter - this business of 'oh he didn't gain an advantage so we won't penalise him' only exists in the minds of TV presenters - there is NO SUCH THING.

The problem will be the future because as soon as one of four team cars moves so much as a mm, Race Control will penalise them - the bias will show through yet again....

[Dazz]

It is interesting because I was watching the Formula X-Treme bikes on the weekend on TV, and in one race a dude on the front row jumped the start, then stopped, then made a shocker of a start and basically ended up last, so gained no advantage, but still copped the regulation 20 second panalty, as the rules state.

I do agree that the officials have now set a dangerous precedent by allowing Marcus off the hook.

From a spectator point of view it at least didn't ruin the race from the flag drop, but was none the less a bad decision by the judges.

I also think, and I don't know what the rules state, but they have to get over this drive through panalty for every offence as it totaly screws up the whole thing.

Like in the bikes, a 20 second panalty applied at the end of the race at least gives a driver a chance to go like hell and maybe make up some time, and doesn't ruin the on track racing.

[RaceTime]

Bikes and cars have totally different rules btw.

With bikes the front axle has to go over the starting box before a penalty is applied - so you *could* move forward slightly but stop and have no penalty applied.

With cars, it is entirely different - the rules quite clearly state that from the 'moment the red light comes on' until the red light goes out there can be no movement whatsoever.

I know I can be a ******* interpreting this rul sometimes at race meetings, but quite basically - a rule is a rule. If I (or anyone else) decides 'No, that 1/2 metre movement wasn't covered by the Jump Start rule' then I would have trouble enforcing it at a later meeting when a movement WAS covered.

As long as it isn't lilke at Oran Park in the 70's when a certain Captain Peter Janson took off when the 1 minute board was shown - in those days you could only apply a 1 minute penalty and he hoped to use that to help him.

What he didn't count on was the black flag being given to him, he comes into the pits only to be told 'Oh sorry - it wasn't meant for you - out you go'....

Although - I have to admit we have toyed with the idea of giving EVERYONE in a race a drive through for a jump start - just to see what happens you understand (Hmmmm Wakefield is on this weekend .....now should I do this or not!)

[Dazz]

I'm glad you brought that up about Peter Janson's jump start antics, it's one of those funny things that never happens these days. I also seem to recall him being the one who got around the rule which said that no sponsorship could be carried on the windscreen where the drivers have their names, so he had his name legally changed to NGK Janson, what a legend

Anybody know what the Captain is up to these days? How about a very long odds bet that he will be partnering Brock at Bathurst instead of Baird

[mtpanorama]

Originally posted by RaceTime


Although - I have to admit we have toyed with the idea of giving EVERYONE in a race a drive through for a jump start - just to see what happens you understand (Hmmmm Wakefield is on this weekend .....now should I do this or not!)

The under 2 litre inmproved production feild would be good. I have a mate racing a black Gti in that race. If not the whole feild, just one car will do. Black Gti swift.

BTW, I cant make it to Wakefeild this weekend, so i wont be able to disturb you again.

[Flaggie]

I totally agree with drive through penalties. Time penalties are a joke, and I can just see the day when if time penalties were introduced, that someone who crossed the line first at Bathurst would lose the race, that would go down real well.

Keep drive throughs. Someone breaks a rule, they deserve to be punished, end of story.

As for HRT jumpstarts not pinged, Calder 2001, Skaife rolled, stopped and started. When we heard the black flag call, we all thought it was for the roll start. Turned out it wasn't, but by RaceTime's own reading of the rules, should have been.

As for Marcos's attempt, I've seen it and I wouldn't have called it either. But to be fair I wouldnt have called Skaife's at Calder, and they were the same thing. I fail to see where a dangerous precedent has been set.

[elephino]

RT, bikes have changed now to match cars at least internaitonally. And I thought it was the rear axle before.