Quality Of The Drivers - Page 2

mbathshah · 30 Sep 2005, 14:41 (Ref:1420978)

But Jenson Button came 3rd in his first year of the PROPER F3 CHAMPIONSHIP not the rookie category of that Championship. Kimi won 13 out of his first 23 races after leaving karting! That is winning more than 50% of his car races before becoming an F1 Driver. Really!

mbathshah · 30 Sep 2005, 14:44 (Ref:1420980)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Well I guess that depends on what you refer to as the pinnacle of motorsport. It doesn't all revolve around F1.

For some people, F3 is the pinnacle of motorsport. For others it will be A1GP. Others may consider Sportscars the place to be if you're the best. Others wouldn't even consider circuit racing to be the pinnacle of motorsport and would only be interested in Rally drivers.

Everyone has their idea of how to gauge the most outstanding achievements. Obviously F1 is considered to be the pinnacle by those who don't really follow motorsport because that's usually all they see on mainstream TV or on the news. That doesn't make it true though.

As for calibre, I'm not sure what you mean by that one. Obviously age and fitness levels count for a lot, but if age was a serious barrier, then Button would have been winning championships for the last 3 years and Schumacher would be hobbling around pitlane on a zimmer frame. Experience counts for a lot when you're out on a race circuit.

I have to ask, have you been following motorsport for long and what was your main centre of interest(s) before looking at A1GP?

Ask any driver what they want to be when they grow up- F1 will be the answer in the vast majority of cases. If a driver considers F3 to be the pinnacle then there must be something wrong with them. A cold day at Thruxton or the glitz, glamour and MONEY at Monaco. Are you kidding me or what?

Ian Sowman · 30 Sep 2005, 14:45 (Ref:1420981)

Well, he has won rather less tnah 50% since he got to F1, so he can't be that much of a deal...

I think two championships in two years of F3 is better than third in one season. Not saying Kerr is better than Button - I'd say there might not be a gulf between the two...

nev · 30 Sep 2005, 14:49 (Ref:1420986)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbathshah

But Jenson Button came 3rd in his first year of the PROPER F3 CHAMPIONSHIP not the rookie category of that Championship. Kimi won 13 out of his first 23 races after leaving karting! That is winning more than 50% of his car races before becoming an F1 Driver. Really!

And Robbie came 1st in his 1st year of the PROPER F3 CHAMPIONSHIP !!

I was there i saw it i promise - he went round and round and round many times and came 1st

Go-Pakistan · 30 Sep 2005, 14:51 (Ref:1420988)

Well said Evil Pumpkin !!!

F3, A1GP, the cars are equal, so it IS down to driver and set up.

remember what mansell said after winning the F1 title back in 1992.......even a monkey ccould have won the title in a williams....(or words to that effect)....he was commenting on the amount of driver aids....

If anyone has heard about these charity driving competitions where F1 drivers go karting, Herbert used to win quite a few but never had the same success in his Lotus.

Ferrari's budget $400m, Jordan's budget $40m...that tells you something, doesn't mean Schumacher is 10 times bettter than Karthikeyan!

Karthikeyan won Formula Ford festival, a very prestigous event and also won F3 at Spa and i think Macau Masters which a huge F3 event. So he's not without talent, just hasn't got the car to dominate.

F1 is the most commercially driven series in motor racing, some would say a bit of a circus. The real connoiseurs seem to prefer Le Mans and GT cars as the 'real' pinnacle....

And as for rally drivers, driving at 150mph on a loose surface along a cliff edge with no run off area takes incredible skill......

i think a top rally driver would do great in an f1 car, but doubt if an f1 driver could match a top rally drivers times on gravel!!!

mbathshah · 30 Sep 2005, 14:53 (Ref:1420990)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

Well, he has won rather less tnah 50% since he got to F1, so he can't be that much of a deal...

I think two championships in two years of F3 is better than third in one season. Not saying Kerr is better than Button - I'd say there might not be a gulf between the two...

No driver in the history of F1 has won 50% of their races so not sure what you are trying to say. Great drivers come along make their mark on a championship and move on. Hanging around in F3 for 2 or 3 years before winning it ain't that great.

mbathshah · 30 Sep 2005, 14:55 (Ref:1420993)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Go-Pakistan

Well said Evil Pumpkin !!!

F3, A1GP, the cars are equal, so it IS down to driver and set up.

remember what mansell said after winning the F1 title back in 1992.......even a monkey ccould have won the title in a williams....(or words to that effect)....he was commenting on the amount of driver aids....

If anyone has heard about these charity driving competitions where F1 drivers go karting, Herbert used to win quite a few but never had the same success in his Lotus.

Ferrari's budget $400m, Jordan's budget $40m...that tells you something, doesn't mean Schumacher is 10 times bettter than Karthikeyan!

Karthikeyan won Formula Ford festival, a very prestigous event and also won F3 at Spa and i think Macau Masters which a huge F3 event. So he's not without talent, just hasn't got the car to dominate.

F1 is the most commercially driven series in motor racing, some would say a bit of a circus. The real connoiseurs seem to prefer Le Mans and GT cars as the 'real' pinnacle....

And as for rally drivers, driving at 150mph on a loose surface along a cliff edge with no run off area takes incredible skill......

i think a top rally driver would do great in an f1 car, but doubt if an f1 driver could match a top rally drivers times on gravel!!!

Karthekeyan has NEVER won a championship in his life! Even in the lower formulas. Schumacher won everything practically from karting all the way up.

EvilPumpkin · 30 Sep 2005, 15:00 (Ref:1420998)

mbath I would strongly advise you go to our FAQ regarding posting guidelines. Specifically, I would like you to go here.

When you've read it, then please continue posting.

mbathshah · 30 Sep 2005, 15:00 (Ref:1421000)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Go-Pakistan

Well said Evil Pumpkin !!!

F3, A1GP, the cars are equal, so it IS down to driver and set up.

remember what mansell said after winning the F1 title back in 1992.......even a monkey ccould have won the title in a williams....(or words to that effect)....he was commenting on the amount of driver aids....

If anyone has heard about these charity driving competitions where F1 drivers go karting, Herbert used to win quite a few but never had the same success in his Lotus.

Ferrari's budget $400m, Jordan's budget $40m...that tells you something, doesn't mean Schumacher is 10 times bettter than Karthikeyan!

Karthikeyan won Formula Ford festival, a very prestigous event and also won F3 at Spa and i think Macau Masters which a huge F3 event. So he's not without talent, just hasn't got the car to dominate.

F1 is the most commercially driven series in motor racing, some would say a bit of a circus. The real connoiseurs seem to prefer Le Mans and GT cars as the 'real' pinnacle....

And as for rally drivers, driving at 150mph on a loose surface along a cliff edge with no run off area takes incredible skill......

i think a top rally driver would do great in an f1 car, but doubt if an f1 driver could match a top rally drivers times on gravel!!!

I seem to remember that Prost Senna came 1/2 at the Paris Bercy "Charity event" when they were racing in F1. ALso M Schumacher came 2nd in the world championship karting event in 2000. Rally drivers Phah! - Kovaillanen last year beat all of them in Paris!

nev · 30 Sep 2005, 15:00 (Ref:1421001)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbathshah

But Jenson Button came 3rd in his first year of the PROPER F3 CHAMPIONSHIP not the rookie category of that Championship. Kimi won 13 out of his first 23 races after leaving karting! That is winning more than 50% of his car races before becoming an F1 Driver. Really!

Someone should tell his mum that it wasnt Kimi who was racing in the Renault winter series prior to the main Renault series in 2000. Know your facts mbathshah !! Granted Kimi and Button are good drivers but there are many equal if not better drivers who haven't had the breaks that they had.

EvilPumpkin · 30 Sep 2005, 15:02 (Ref:1421003)

mbath, read my previous posting. If I see any more posts from you quoting the entirety of someone else's post, they will be removed.

Go-Pakistan · 30 Sep 2005, 15:04 (Ref:1421005)

I never said Karthikeyan won a championship, I said F3 races at Spa and i think Macau, i think he finished 4th in F3 that season. formula ford festival is a one off event at brands hatch over a long weekend.

put NK and schumi in a car that was new to both of them, give them the same amount of testing and i'm sure schumi would be quicker but i don't think NK would embarrass himself with his performance......

Most underated and underhyped driver i reckon is martin brundle, lost F3 title to senna by half a point. both went straight into f1 after that. he was also not far off schumi at benetton back in 94 (i think i got the year right). But he is a very humble bloke.

mbathshah · 30 Sep 2005, 15:04 (Ref:1421006)

Quote:

Originally Posted by nev

Someone should tell his mum that it wasnt Kimi who was racing in the Renault winter series prior to the main Renault series in 2000. Know your facts mbathshah !! Granted Kimi and Button are good drivers but there are many equal if not better drivers who haven't had the breaks that they had.

I know that all you have to do is go to the web site of Kimi and have a look. Prior to the winter series Kimi did 4 car races. In the winter series he won 4 out 4 races. In the main renault championship following the winter series he won 7 out of the 10 races. With all due respect I do know my facts

mbathshah · 30 Sep 2005, 15:10 (Ref:1421012)

Quote:

Originally Posted by nev

And Robbie came 1st in his 1st year of the PROPER F3 CHAMPIONSHIP !!

I was there i saw it i promise - he went round and round and round many times and came 1st

I am sorry that is not true - go to his web site at http://www.robbiekerr.co.uk and you will see that in 2001 he won the Scholarship Class and in 2002 he won the proper British F3 Championship.

Ian Sowman · 30 Sep 2005, 15:13 (Ref:1421017)

So it is true then, as by your standards he wasn't in the proper F3 championship in 2001... Most people do see F3 as a two-year project.

mbathshah · 30 Sep 2005, 15:18 (Ref:1421021)

I agree but all I am saying is don't confuse the scholarship class with the British F3 Championship

Ian Sowman · 30 Sep 2005, 15:20 (Ref:1421023)

So he did win on his first season in British F3 then, in 2002. Which is more than Jenson Button did.

EvilPumpkin · 30 Sep 2005, 15:22 (Ref:1421024)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

I have to ask, have you been following motorsport for long and what was your main centre of interest(s) before looking at A1GP?

Haven't had an answer to this one yet.

nev · 30 Sep 2005, 15:25 (Ref:1421027)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

So he did win on his first season in British F3 then, in 2002. Which is more than Jenson Button did.

Exactly

mbathshah · 30 Sep 2005, 15:26 (Ref:1421028)

I don't think you understand. Jenson Button went from Formula Ford to F3 and came 3rd in his first year. Robbie Kerr spent one year in the scholarship class (Which are basically last year's F3 cars and means a driver can get used to the cars and circuits whilst trundling around at the back with the other scholarship class drivers) and spent another year in Proper F3 in which he won it. That's great and I'm not knocking his achievment. However, Jenson (I am not a fan of his) moved straight from F3 proper to F1 because his achievement was clearly thought of as pretty exceptional

mbathshah · 30 Sep 2005, 15:29 (Ref:1421031)

I have been following Motorsport for a very long time (First F1 race was Silverstone when I saw Nigel Mansell beat Piquet). Followed it ever since but only recently realised that Ten Tenths was around. Great site!

I really did think that A1GP was going to be a F1 type of series over the winter months but have been dissapointed a bit by the first race at Brands Hatch where too many problems caused the better drivers to have poor finishes.

Ian Sowman · 30 Sep 2005, 15:32 (Ref:1421033)

I understand perfectly. I understand that this line of argument has backed you into a corner. On the one hand you want us not to believe that the Scholarship class is not proper F3; and then on the other one you want us to believe that it pretty much is! I'm not saying that Button's achievement wasn't very fine indeed; I would argue that Kerr's is equally fine. Button merely had more on his side though.

Alienman_69 · 30 Sep 2005, 15:35 (Ref:1421036)

There are some good drivers in A1GP and some others you may not know and with proper training and experience may be just as good. Dont forget there are some countrys in A1GP that you never heard of the drivers and they probably never drove outside their own country, so they need time.
I believe Piquet is special, specially now that his getting mature. Dont forget he was 3rd on his first year of British F3 in his own team that had no previous experience and data of the english tracks and that his been unlucky at GP2 with the car braking a lot of times and also with some problems in his team. Also think Speed is very good on one lap, but not as good in a racing distance and for most of the others I dont know that well, so I wont talk about them.

nev · 30 Sep 2005, 15:36 (Ref:1421038)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbathshah

I don't think you understand. Jenson Button went from Formula Ford to F3 and came 3rd in his first year. Robbie Kerr spent one year in the scholarship class (Which are basically last year's F3 cars and means a driver can get used to the cars and circuits whilst trundling around at the back with the other scholarship class drivers) and spent another year in Proper F3 in which he won it. That's great and I'm not knocking his achievment. However, Jenson (I am not a fan of his) moved straight from F3 proper to F1 because his achievement was clearly thought of as pretty exceptional

No No No - F3 scholarship is not basically last years F3 cars. As i recall every 3 years F3 reresh thier cars and Robbie drove a 3 year old F3 car. The following year when he was in the F3 Chanpionship class they all had new cars, Adam Carrol won the scholarship class in this year in a year old F3 car. And It wasnt because Jensons achievement was clearly thought of as pretty exceptional that he went straight into F3 championship clas, it was down to him having the buget. He still had to pay that year to drive. With a little money from Play station i recall.

Andrew Kitson · 30 Sep 2005, 16:38 (Ref:1421080)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbathshah

I have been following Motorsport for a very long time (First F1 race was Silverstone when I saw Nigel Mansell beat Piquet).

Blimey - that is a very long time as you say...

I was at the first ever GP at Brands in 1964...and I saw Fittipaldi & Mansell's first FF races.
Seriously..there are some great drivers in A1-GP, Piquet is a class act, despite his points standing in GP2, Scott Speed, Jani, etc etc and Robbie is right up there with them, but has suffered from that British disease lack of cash that foreign drivers seem to avoid. But some drivers need time to develop. You cannot expect some of the guys from countries with little motorsport heritage to be on the pace straight away.

And who mentioned earlier that a certain driver with moustache said 'a monkey could drive that 1992 car and win the championship?
Remember that the majority of what he said was bull. Ask anyone at Williams..

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