Jump Start

903cc · 9 Oct 2005, 14:40 (Ref:1428435)

Well i thought during the replays that Coulthard jumped the start. The Sydney Morning Herald has a quotes from Webber and Coulthard on the matter. What are others opinions.

The quotes are

Australian Mark Webber called on Formula One to monitor race starts more closely after accusing Red Bull's David Coulthard of jumping the gun at the Japanese Grand Prix.

"The biggest thing is they have to do something about people jumping starts," said the Williams driver, who finished fourth at Suzuka after starting seventh, alongside Coulthard in sixth.

"I mean Coulthard went two weeks early. It was like Ralf (Schumacher) in Brazil. With the technology we have, they have to do something.

"One thousand per cent, he went before the lights went out."

Coulthard was less than impressed with the charge.

"Go speak to the FIA," said the Scot. "There's a start system in place. As the lights started to change I went. It doesn't really matter what the drivers think."

Link

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Sport/Web...796408338.html

Captain Chaos · 9 Oct 2005, 14:47 (Ref:1428440)

It's my understanding that F1 cars have position sensors in the cars that would have detected any movement before the lights were extinguished.

Kicking-back · 9 Oct 2005, 14:48 (Ref:1428442)

They do indeed.

Sounds like sour grapes from a slower-starting Webber.

903cc · 9 Oct 2005, 14:51 (Ref:1428450)

K-B agree. But irony is that this was probably one of his better starts....

BootsOntheSide · 9 Oct 2005, 15:07 (Ref:1428467)

Seems like DC just reacted extremely quickly and got away well as a result. Webber and Coulthard have had a lot of confrontations this season, both on and off-track, but on this occasion I wonder if Webber should be looking more at his own technique, which we were always told was down to teh car until this year.

maximus · 9 Oct 2005, 15:14 (Ref:1428482)

Webber should have used his brain here, if RS or DC did jump the start then the computers would have detected it and they would have been pulled in. I don't think they did, nothing was heard again and no penalty was given.

It certainly is sounding like sour grapes from Webber.

Besides, everyone will seem to start quickly to him, seeing as the Williams seems so slow off the line!

Mr V · 9 Oct 2005, 15:21 (Ref:1428495)

If these sensors can detect a car being put into gear, i'm sure they would have registed if DC actually jumped the start.

I expect it's easy to believe someone else went early if a drivers a split second slower to react.

twig · 9 Oct 2005, 15:46 (Ref:1428517)

About the jump start thing, this isn't regarding this incident - but remember Sato's start at Monaco in 2004? They deemed it was illegal because he started before the normal human reaction time. He took the gamble to press the button and launch the car, and it worked out for him - unlikely but it did, but he gets given a penalty...how does that work?
"Although you didn't jump the start...you pretty much fluked it - drive through."

They aren't going to get Coulthard here for being too quick like Takuma are they?
...well no they aren't, but how is it logical?

D.R.T. · 9 Oct 2005, 15:49 (Ref:1428522)

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximus

It certainly is sounding like sour grapes from Webber.

Besides, everyone will seem to start quickly to him, seeing as the Williams seems so slow off the line!

That is very true.

Sounds like Webber just wants to get in Coulthards face a bit after David has written and said a few things about Mark recently.

One of Marks strongest races and he beat David by a fair margin, I wouldn't be worrying about the start.

Nado · 9 Oct 2005, 16:08 (Ref:1428549)

Quote:

Originally Posted by twig

About the jump start thing, this isn't regarding this incident - but remember Sato's start at Monaco in 2004? They deemed it was illegal because he started before the normal human reaction time. He took the gamble to press the button and launch the car, and it worked out for him - unlikely but it did, but he gets given a penalty...how does that work?
"Although you didn't jump the start...you pretty much fluked it - drive through."

Let me explain, apparently the starting lights producing some sort of electronic message. Teams would be able to configure into their ICU so that as soon as the light goes off, the car starts immediately, this means that the response time is much quicker than a human can response to. So basically, a driver has to wait until the lights go off, otherwise he's in for a jump start.

------

I had problems loading Live Timing today, and others seemed to as well, was this also the case on the pit wall? If so, maybe Live Timing wasn't the only thing that was down?

Klien did say that his start though good was kinda "sluggish". DC just had a hell of a start, but then that could just come down to experience - or a lot of Red Bull.

**John Turner** · 9 Oct 2005, 16:15 (Ref:1428553)

It is really a bit of a shame that after what is probably his best (and it was a very fine one indeed) drive of the season, Mark should tarnish it by saying this, particularly in the light of the technology in place designed to prevent 'jumped' starts

andy_b · 9 Oct 2005, 18:50 (Ref:1428705)

Webber is always winge-ing, its getting very tireing and boring now, about time he delivered on the track (and I WAS a big Weber fan). As John says, he went someway to doing this today, but then he has to become a Nigel Mansell again *

*= that must have narked off a good proportion of the forum now. Webber & Mansell fans

Knowlesy · 9 Oct 2005, 18:52 (Ref:1428708)

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy_b

(and I WAS a big Weber fan)

Whilst I've never been a fan of his, Willi Weber is a great manager.

I agree about Webber whingeing. Shutup man, you've just put in a great drive! Don't taint your good work by whingeing over something that didn't happen!

**dtype38** · 9 Oct 2005, 19:09 (Ref:1428724)

Hmmm... correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, the telemetry data from the start position transducers don't give an automatic "falce start" signal if a driver jumps the lights. I believe this is deliberately so in order to avoid previous problems of falce start penalties being made against cars for selecting first gear or having a slightly dragging clutch. As I understand it, it is up to the starter or another team to lodge a complaint against a driver for a falce start, in which case the data from its position sensor will be examined against the timing of the start lights, by experts, to decide if the car actually began proper forward movement before human reactions could have responded to the lights. If this proved to be the case a dirve-thru or stop-go would be called against the driver a few laps into the race. So did Williams lodge a complaint at the start? If not, then tough.

Knowlesy · 9 Oct 2005, 19:13 (Ref:1428729)

Usually jump starts are under investigation immediately, regardless of any team protests.

**dtype38** · 9 Oct 2005, 19:15 (Ref:1428731)

Is that automatic for every car on the grid, or just for cars suspected of a jump?

Knowlesy · 9 Oct 2005, 19:23 (Ref:1428744)

Just for cars which either are suspected or trigger the jump start mechanism......this is then investigated for clarity.

mac · 10 Oct 2005, 04:21 (Ref:1429060)

Well, for those who were not sitting on the grid alongside Coulthard, you all have pretty firmly decided that Coulthard did not jump the start from your limited television viewpoints.

Webber is entitled to his opinion and was in a pretty good position to see. If he thought Ralf and/or DC jumped the start he is entitled to say so.

Yes, their are electronic devices in place to monitor jump starts, but are you going to tell me you have never had a problem with an electronic device!?

twig · 10 Oct 2005, 08:00 (Ref:1429188)

I watched the start video - and DC DEFINATELY moved before everyone else - maybe not illegally, but luckily.

twig · 10 Oct 2005, 08:04 (Ref:1429192)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanh Ha

Let me explain, apparently the starting lights producing some sort of electronic message. Teams would be able to configure into their ICU so that as soon as the light goes off, the car starts immediately, this means that the response time is much quicker than a human can response to. So basically, a driver has to wait until the lights go off, otherwise he's in for a jump start.

Well, i know about that one - Renault used it apparently. Last year at Monaco, Sato's start was not about launching because of the well figured ICU, but because HE let go of the button in blind faith - it was unlikely to have worked out for him, either he moved before the lights, or he got a quick getaway.

He moved after the lights, got a quick getaway...but was penalised.

NO1SPECIAL · 10 Oct 2005, 09:05 (Ref:1429283)

Most people seem to be of the opinion that Coulthard did not jump the start or he would have been penalised, but Webber was right there so his opinion is certainly more worthy than most. I thought Coulthard's reply was interesting - he said he went when the lights "started to change." Unless he's got superhuman eyes I don't think he could have detected when they started to change - to human eyes a light is on and then it is off, the change is too fast to detect. His challenge to take it to the FIA almost sounds like a poker bluff too. Still, I could be wrong.
Lastly, I don't perceive Webber as a "moaner" like some on this forum have painted him - just a man who calls it how he sees it. Most people in the real world would call this an admirable trait.

903cc · 10 Oct 2005, 10:34 (Ref:1429389)

I am trying to clarify the situation

So if the starters and officials did not notice the jump start, and nobody complains then nothing is done? Is this a correct assumption based on the fact there is no telemetry between the start lights and the cars. But if there is an investigation they can get the information from when the car started and the lights went out?

joe rossi · 10 Oct 2005, 10:43 (Ref:1429409)

Quote:

Originally Posted by 903cc

I am trying to clarify the situation

So if the starters and officials did not notice the jump start, and nobody complains then nothing is done? Is this a correct assumption based on the fact there is no telemetry between the start lights and the cars. But if there is an investigation they can get the information from when the car started and the lights went out?

If Webber was so sure DC jumped, why didn't Williams complain to the FIA during the race? (or did they?)

Kicking-back · 10 Oct 2005, 10:53 (Ref:1429423)

It was just a very good start, rather than a jump - or someone would have complained at the time.

NO1SPECIAL · 10 Oct 2005, 11:00 (Ref:1429431)

I dunno - is it william's job to complain? Is that the usual procedure? Can anyone (k-b?) say with certain knowledge how jump starts are usually picked up? And how they are proven or disproven? And why we really need telemetry - isn't video enough?
As to why Webber might not have complained during the race, perhaps he was just too busy racing.

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