Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising Live Chat  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides MotorsportAds MotorsTV (Sky 447)  
Related Sites: trackrooms.co.uk Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Racing Talk > Trackside


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 7 Aug 2015, 06:15 (Ref:3564309)   #16
midgetman
Veteran
 
midgetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
England
Rural Wiltshire
Posts: 3,962
midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!midgetman has a real shot at the championship!
It depends what you want from an event of course. If you want regularly cleaned toilets, toilet paper, wash rooms then someone has to pay for you to have it. Also gate money is a small income for the club to help it stay on existence and put on something for your entertainment.

If you're happy to defecate in the woods and wash your hands in a stream then feel free, I don't begrudge clubs earning money to ensure I have facilities, commentator etc
midgetman is online now  
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq!
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2015, 09:49 (Ref:3564338)   #17
bella
Race Official
Veteran
 
bella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
France
Posts: 14,931
bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
i don't want to argue, but france has plenty of race tracks for the level of interest there is in the sport. the crowds that turn out for the pre-season wec test at ricard on a school day are testament to what people will do if motorsport is accessible.

but i'd like to know how the clubs manage to afford running with free entrance in countries where they do that. is our sport in the uk too fragmented?
bella is offline  
__________________
devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2015, 10:35 (Ref:3564343)   #18
chunder
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
England
Stevenage
Posts: 7,576
chunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I am not so sure club racing needs a crowd at all to be perfectly honest.

I gave up on it many years ago as often, even in the fairly bulletproof late 80's and 90's the grids were small, uninspiring and racing was often average, though there was some good stuff at Cadwell when I used to go early doors.

If you live near a venue then it is understandable that you mght want to go a bit more, but the masses are not the lighest bit interested when you can go to a park with the kids for free, or the beach, or simply socialise. To be hoenst local venues should be dishing out free tickets to people anyway for club events, as a two way dont ***** about our track, and come and have a look yoou might like it, bring a friend etc etc.

How does motorsport run in Holland and France? Is it run by clubs or do the FFSA do everything or the ACO? I am not sure on their organisations?

There are far too many clubs running events over here, and they all want their piece of pie for the series they run, those days have to end surely?

But the bigger picture has to be participation, spectating. Do you really need security guards at club meetings? No. Do you need the venue hosting food outlets? No you can outsource and charge THEM instead of the spectator. Everything else is covered by entry fees. You are NEVER going to make any money from fans in club racing, so why bother charging them. Tracks only do it to make money, no other reason. Outsource it, its simple.

A commentator yes, but again the club can pay for that, most of them have more than enough money to put up a guy who can talk for a few hours, probably a club member, who actually would know more details about individuals than some hired help anyway.

Sadly our country is fll of short termism within motorsport, a quick buck, a piece of pie, NOBODY looks at the long term, the future and the legacy.
chunder is offline  
__________________
This used to be such a vibrant place. Unless you are Oz or like 24h races whats the point now?
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2015, 11:20 (Ref:3564348)   #19
JamieStewart9
Rookie
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 33
JamieStewart9 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridJamieStewart9 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Some very inaccurate and unfair comments about clubs in some of those posts.

Most clubs (most) are primarily there because the people involved in doing all the work behind the scenes are genuinely enthusiastic about motorsport. Some club officials and marshals are ex-competitors, but a larger percentage are people who always wanted to be racers, but for reasons various never got around to it.

I understand that the usual multi-thousand post blowhards will have stopped reading by now because they already know it all - but I'll go on to express an opinion on the original topic anyway - IF YOU ARE GENUINELY INTERESTED please read to the end.

In the modern era Clubs do not get ANY of the gate money at permanent circuits, which might explain why many of them concentrate their efforts on attracting competitors rather than spectators.

Whilst that might seem grossly unfair (and I personally think it is) we have to ask how we came to have that situation. It wasn't always like that.

When I first took over the running of BMCRC in 1996, I had cause to look at a lot of the historical club records, going right back to 1956. The thing that jumped out at me was that up until 1984 circuit hires were VERY modest AND the club got a 50% share of any gate revenues that the event attracted.

Then there was a gradual shift in emphasis and circuit hires increased steadily (at well over 4 times the rate of inflation) over several years. The gate share was still there at this stage, but with the increased circuit hires clubs were forced to concentrate more on putting on ever more efficient meetings that catered for more races - because that was now where the bulk of their income came from.

After a few years of this, the circuit owners thought "Why are we giving these guys any of our gate money, when they are making no effort to attract spectators?" - remember that this was in a period where circuit availability was far outstripped by the huge queue of potential hirers that wanted to use the venues (a sellers market).

The clubs whinged and moaned of course, but the simple truth was that if "Club A" didn't want the offered date on the terms dictated by the venue, then "Clubs B, C, D, E, F etc" were queuing up to take it off their hands.

The circuits still believe that they are best placed to "Promote" all of the events run on their circuits, but the truth is that very few of them actually understand the nuances of what is taking place. You will see on your entry tickets "Club Cars" or "Club Bikes" instead of something that actually identifies what is going on. The website advertising from the circuits is equally bland and the only differences from one clubmans event to another is the presence of the club logo on the site and entrance ticket.

I wrote an article recently about the demise of clubs and even I was surprised when I had to list 24 bike racing clubs that have ceased to exist in the past 20 years.
I took a quick look this morning, and there are a similar number of defunct car clubs over the same period.

With all of those buyers out of the game, has it now become a buyers market? - Maybe.....

I am now personally in discussions with three different venues about doing a "dry-hire" for next season so that I can take on the promotional duties and take the gate money. Dry-hire being where I have to not only hire the venue, but also pay the security, gate staff, commentary, toilet cleaners and everything else that the circuit usually take care of.

I believe that the most promotable event would be a day that is "CHEAP" for the family but not "FREE" as that implies that it isn't worth anything. The old MCN 1 day was an excellent example of what worked. Everything was 1 from the entry ticket, to a programme, a burger and a coffee/tea.
The last one we did at Brands Hatch in 1998 attracted a genuine 8,000 spectators and set us up for the season, because 8,000 people had our seasons schedule placed in their hand as they arrived and many of them came to other events with us that year.

The trick we are missing now is the old Car/Bike event like some of those we used to run in the eighties and early nineties. The old CMSA Festival at Brands Hatch springs to mind.

You don't need huge content, just varied and interesting content that caters for as wide an audience as possible.
1) 1960s based Car Race
2) 1960s based Bike Race
3) 1970s based Car Race
4) 1970s based Bike Race
5) 1980s based Car Race
6) 1980s based Bike Race
7) Modern Single Seater Race
8) Modern Superbike type race
9) Modern Sidecar Race
10) Kart Race
11) Legends Race
12) Truck Race
13) Historic Sidecar Race
Run the whole programme twice over the weekend and you have 26 races of action on circuit plus the peripherals:-

Club stands, static displays, paratroop drop and loads more stuff.

There are a million ways of saying that won't work, but they are not the interesting things. The interesting thing is the one that says it can work.

I don't post often, so apologise for the long post.

Dave
JamieStewart9 is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2015, 13:50 (Ref:3564378)   #20
chunder
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
England
Stevenage
Posts: 7,576
chunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I will admit I ahve never been a member of a car club, I went to a few meetings and was so horrified I stayed away!

But the crux of yuour post is spot on, a cheap race day, a way of making money for both parties, and a way of getting new people involved.

Take away your personal issues about clubs as you are a very biased person regarding that, as I am about not being involved with clubs.

The issue is the possible race meeting you are talkign about, nothing else matters really
chunder is offline  
__________________
This used to be such a vibrant place. Unless you are Oz or like 24h races whats the point now?
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2015, 18:55 (Ref:3564435)   #21
Adam43
Race Official
20KPINAL
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
The Road to Rouen
Posts: 30,302
Adam43 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAdam43 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAdam43 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAdam43 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAdam43 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAdam43 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAdam43 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAdam43 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAdam43 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAdam43 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAdam43 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunder View Post
Is it pure greed?
I don't think it is that. If this was successful there is more money coming into a race meeting and hence more profit (for someone, or some people).

The observation that club racing doesn't need spectators is true. It doesn't have them at the moment, unless you count my Mum coming to watch me.

Which might raise another issue, if I'm being devil's advocate. Why would you want to go and watch 'normal' people race? Isn't it just equivalent of a Sunday 5-a-side game, but with a bigger more expensive pitch, more expensive balls and more people needed to watch over the game? Although the "balls" are more interesting to look at and make a better noise.
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
The engine is shiny.
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2015, 21:17 (Ref:3564479)   #22
JamieStewart9
Rookie
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 33
JamieStewart9 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridJamieStewart9 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
A Club Biased Person? - Chunder if you said that to anyone who knew me, they would literally wet themselves!

No, I run a Racing Organisation that is most definately NOT a club. I run it that way, probably for most of the reasons that you were horrified on first contact with clubs.
I did used to run the biggest motorcycle racing club in the world (at that time) but I left the motorsport business in 2006 to go travelling.

I now run a very successful organisation that is NOT a club, but it behaves exactly how I think a club should, but without all the Committees and other nonsense.
It is a Benign Dictatorship. in my eyes anyway - others might disagree. Regardless of that, it is very successful.

However, even though I personally got frustrated with the whole "club" set up, I still do sympathise with all of the people around the UK who make the club motorsport scene happen. I'm not one of them, but I do appreciate that without them the situation we have could be a lot worse.

Although I don't often post - I am like the majority here, who simply read - I have read a lot of your comments, purely because there are an awful lot of them. I haven't been able to work out exactly what it is that you do within motorsport.
Would it be rude to ask?
JamieStewart9 is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2015, 22:36 (Ref:3564496)   #23
chunder
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
England
Stevenage
Posts: 7,576
chunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
So, I am presuming you ran the ACU!!

My interest here is purely as a fan, nothing more. I have been involved in that way since the late 80's when I was able to drive about for myself, and did what most people do initially, follow racing on telly and local events.

I have raced but only at an amateur level in autograss. Never joined a club for the reasons stated above and tried marshalling once, only to be horrified at the shouty little cretins who ran it all, was like being in the damned Army cadets, never again!

The forum needs involvement, not people who do not post or are maybe too afraid or timid to post. It's a good place to discuss things like this, and people in the know can put people right, offer opinion and bring up new areas to discuss.

Regarding my involvement, it is nothing, just a fan who is sick and tired of being ripped off with some events. Who has managed to find other things that offer far more for race fans away from the MSA, club racing, historic racing.

One who believes passionately that the motorsport public are being taken for a ride at times, and drivers are even more so. They are being asked to foot the bill for poorly run circuits, an MSA that cares more for its bank balance than it does about getting people involved. And a country that rests on its laurels because it has a massive motorsport industry and practically runs F1.

And one who also believes passionately that nowhere near enough is being done to get people involved at a cheap, basic level. Forget clubs and marshalling, what we need is low price events, that offer people more than track days do. It's simple really, if you manage to do that, the drip will start to feed into all areas of motorsport.

Bella has it spot on, if you make events like this one in Holland it can only work wonders for involvement.

Let me give you an example, I remember years ago going to Bernie's airfield in Kent to watch an airshow. I watched for a few hours and then walked to the merchandise stands, except the whole front row was taken up with forces recruitment. Perfect place eh, look at the great planes, here take a leaflet about the Army, Navy kids, young adults. come and sit in a cockpit, shoot a rifle.

You need to give people the chance to drive something, feel something, get close to the action, not give them a few stickers and a Lewis Hamilton mousemat.
chunder is offline  
__________________
This used to be such a vibrant place. Unless you are Oz or like 24h races whats the point now?
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2015, 22:42 (Ref:3564497)   #24
chunder
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
England
Stevenage
Posts: 7,576
chunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
And Adam you are right. Utterly.

I have got into cricket recently, watched a few village games, was alright, then went with my mate to watch Bucks play at Trings ground, the difference was staggering (and this is 3 tiers down from !st class). Would I still be as into watching a village game now? No.

Same as football, I support a Conference side and have been to see them once in 5 years, why? because their quality of football is garbage yet the prices are the same as they were when they were in the League! Am I a bad supporter? Probably, but a reasonable one? Maybe yes.

Same with racing. I love the cars at historic events, what I don't love is seeing people being lapped in 4 laps, beautiful cars being driven slower than a sporting trials car. Nitpicking yes for all that there are countless guys on the limit, driving brilliantly, but that was what I took away from the few grandee events I attended, yet the smaller events seemed to offer me more in terms of value and driving standards!

So yes, I prefer to watch guys at the top of thier game, as should any aspiring fan, yet as fans the prices go up, and up and more and more people who want to be seen to be there go, less who SHOULD be there for the legacy of our sport can't even afford a car park pass.
chunder is offline  
__________________
This used to be such a vibrant place. Unless you are Oz or like 24h races whats the point now?
Quote
Old 8 Aug 2015, 10:50 (Ref:3564554)   #25
JamieStewart9
Rookie
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 33
JamieStewart9 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridJamieStewart9 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thanks, I didn't expect chapter and verse, just an indication of who you were and what you did.

A lot of your points - both here and elsewhere - are not unreasonable and I often find myself agreeing with some of them.
Unfortunately, you can't change things effectively without getting involved in some of the mundane stuff that isn't actually very exciting or appealing.

This comment particularly :- "And one who also believes passionately that nowhere near enough is being done to get people involved at a cheap, basic level. Forget clubs and marshalling, what we need is low price events, that offer people more than track days do. It's simple really, if you manage to do that, the drip will start to feed into all areas of motorsport."
Is like standing at the side of the Motorway shouting at the traffic and expecting it to have some effect.

I myself often rant out loud at the breakfast news and my wife has to remind me, that no matter how well my point is made, it is futile unless I am willing to actually get out there and do something about it.

Did I ever run the ACU? - That is truly funny in a way that I can't expect you to even begin to understand.
The ACU used to believe that I was the Anti-Christ and I even got as far as setting up my own licencing body (Moto-GB) back in 2005-2006 in order to take some motorcycle sport funds out of their hands.

I have over the years come to an accommodation with the ACU whereby they accept that I am a bit of a Maverick and that will never change, but I am useful to them in the training of their officials and in trying to drag motorcycle racing into the 21st Century.

I've done a lot of other stuff too, including organising and running (hands on) over 250 events, running two UK circuits, Moto-GP, World Superbikes, World Championship MX and World Championship SuperEnduro - but to go into all that would be boring.

----------------------------

Bellas original thread has been hijacked by this diversion and I apologise for that. In order to get it back on some kind of track...

The Clubs, private Promotors and/or event companies really do need to look at the possibilities of Dry-Hiring venues, because only once someone has put their hand in their pocket and shown just how successful and popular such an event could be, will the circuits re-evaluate how they do business.

I'm interested in doing just that and I have the financial ability and contacts to do so. If any Car Clubs/Organisers are genuinely interested in doing it and putting in real promotional effort, not just putting on another ordinary race.
I'd very much like to hear from them.

Events are the future, not just Race Meetings - it has to offer more than that.

Dave Stewart
Thundersport GB
Stewart Events

www.thundersportgb.com
JamieStewart9 is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Aug 2015, 11:54 (Ref:3564566)   #26
chunder
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
England
Stevenage
Posts: 7,576
chunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Haha, I forgive the ACU accusation Dave, I know who you are very well, and how that just ahve made you chuckle as a result!

And you make a lot of valid points, events are the future. Race meetings are basically track days with a pay ticket.

A lot of club bike meetings are similar, but what bike racing has is that involvement from riders, it is more of a club than car racing and driving cars. Same as motocross and enduro.

Plus you have more variety in off road and it is far, far cheaper to get involved in, so a series like yours can have decent grids and be adventurous with new ttpes of class etc.

That does not happen in circuit racing anymore and you have series like rallycross that even tried to run two series at the same time and wondered why grids collapsed. And the bastion of motorsport for decades rallying has now been mismanaged so badly there is no national championship, imagine not having BSB! ( I know you wouldn't probably mind but remember what it was like in the early 90's nationally?)

It seems bikes are capable fo running plenty of different championships both on and off road, cars really can't manage it, yet for some reason the people in responsibility do not seem to understand!
chunder is offline  
__________________
This used to be such a vibrant place. Unless you are Oz or like 24h races whats the point now?
Quote
Old 13 Aug 2015, 03:27 (Ref:3565725)   #27
rich07
Veteran
 
rich07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Australia
Victoria
Posts: 7,712
rich07 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridrich07 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridrich07 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridrich07 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by bella View Post

meanwhile, here in the uk we've had to add a daily entrance charge (15 for 2 days on the gate) for the normally free world series by renault event. no other event has felt this necessary on the calendar.

How does that work? I was under the impression that Renault covered the gate costs of the event? So would the circuit have to run any ticket prices past Renault? No free entry would mean less people coming through and less exposure for Renault.

Sorry to be ot but I'm rather intrigued.
rich07 is offline  
__________________
Somebody asked if the McLaren F1 was going to be like the Ferrari F40, Gordon Murray replied, "I don't think so, there's no one at McLaren who can weld that badly."
Quote
Old 13 Aug 2015, 10:04 (Ref:3565763)   #28
bella
Race Official
Veteran
 
bella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
France
Posts: 14,931
bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
the events are run by the local renault lot - so renault uk in our case. as i understand it, they mostly pay for the event costs itself and put on additional entertainment etc to go with the travelling wsr circus of attractions (bouncy castles, kids entertainment, car displays, driving demos, etc). different countries put different amounts of effort behind it, for example the russians were pretty keen and had proper entertainment on a stage. the germans had a small fairground type effort. the french weirdly aren't that bothered, the round at ricard was well attended but most of the other events at ricard had more side attractions.

it appears the only way that it could be run here because of the scary cost of circuit hire/people control/the popularity of the event being its worst enemy is by charging what is a fair amount for entry in relation to other motorsport in this country. but it says a lot doesn't it?

(incidentally, please continue with the thread hijacking - all adds context to the entire point of discussion!)

Last edited by bella; 13 Aug 2015 at 10:10.
bella is offline  
__________________
devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides
Quote
Old 13 Aug 2015, 10:30 (Ref:3565767)   #29
chunder
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
England
Stevenage
Posts: 7,576
chunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Britain is a rather sad place when it comes to sport and what people will pay to watch sport.

But thankfully there are still countless sports that are relatively cheap to watch.

I do not think 15 quid to watch the WSR is a bad deal, but all that does is prevent those people from turning up that were looking at it as a cheap day out from coupons or publicity.

Motorsport CAN afford to do that once in a while. But what it does instead is have a grain of an idea, make it cheap to get people interested, then charge the earth after and try and milk the idea for cash so that the poeple invovled can cream off a profit.

I would be interested to know how much Silverstone, Brands, Assen, Hockenheim are to hire for events and if our prices are so insane.

I can believe security here is expensive, they have suddenly become big business and have somehow managed to convince this country that security guards are necessary in supermarkets, railway stations, pubs, shoping centres! Where do you think your car parking, ticket prices etc go then eh? Are we really that dumb!

It sadly appears so
chunder is offline  
__________________
This used to be such a vibrant place. Unless you are Oz or like 24h races whats the point now?
Quote
Old 13 Aug 2015, 10:37 (Ref:3565768)   #30
ss_collins
Veteran
 
ss_collins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Nigeria
Mooresville, NC
Posts: 6,668
ss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Hey Maria, it has been done once before in the UK, the MN50 meeting at Brands Hatch 10 years ago. MN took over the event and jazzed it up, and did the promotion resulting in a big crowd a good day of racing and Barry Lee doing doughnuts in the pit lane.
ss_collins is offline  
__________________
Chase the horizon
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Preffered day for a UK Track Day Event Steve Wilkinson Track Day Forum 5 13 Feb 2005 13:23


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 20:31.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2016 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.