JEV or AFdC

Hawkwood · 10 Oct 2013, 23:01 (Ref:3316050)

I was just thinking (about if I bought an F1 team, which team it would be, who I'd hire etc etc... anyway

), about if someone came in and bought Toro Rosso (they've been available for a good while now).
Looking at the way Red Bull do business, whoever bought STR would have to have at least one Red Bull driver for a season (like how if you leave Red Bull you generally have to keep their branding on your kit for a year).

It got me thinking about JEV's position in the Red Bull hierarchy at the moment given that he's just been told in no uncertain terms that he isn't good enough.

If it came to it, would Red Bull foist JEV on a team or their rising (though slightly 'dimmed' this year) star Antonio Felix da Costa?
Who do Red Bull rate higher?
Another thing, assuming Felix da Costa is promoted to STR, Vergne realistically has to pound AFdC into the weeds because if he lost that duel he'd be gone, right? Sainz and Kvyat will be eying these seats for 2015.

**Aysedasi** · 11 Oct 2013, 07:34 (Ref:3316148)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

It got me thinking about JEV's position in the Red Bull hierarchy at the moment given that he's just been told in no uncertain terms that he isn't good enough.

Has he been told this? Or just that he's not seen as as good a prospect as Ricciardo?

steve_r · 11 Oct 2013, 08:17 (Ref:3316163)

I have not seen much difference between the two Torro Rosso drivers in terms of qualifying and race pace. So, if one of them is off to the best car on the grid, the other surely deserves a place in F1 next season as well.

Hawkwood · 11 Oct 2013, 16:17 (Ref:3316333)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Has he been told this? Or just that he's not seen as as good a prospect as Ricciardo?

They are one and the same.
If Red Bull don't think he is as good as Ricciardo (and plainly they don't) then they do think that his isn't good enough.
If they thought he was good enough then it would be JEV and not Ricciardo who'd be Vettel's teammate next year.

So, do you choose someone who you've already decided isn't good enough, or do you take the next guy coming up the ladder?

Hawkwood · 11 Oct 2013, 16:19 (Ref:3316335)

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_r

I have not seen much difference between the two Torro Rosso drivers in terms of qualifying and race pace. So, if one of them is off to the best car on the grid, the other surely deserves a place in F1 next season as well.

I'm not saying he should be given the boot, but there are plenty of drivers who deserve a place in F1, only a few of them get a place.
But if Red Bull could choose only one of JEV or AFdC, who do you think they would/should choose?

**Aysedasi** · 11 Oct 2013, 17:53 (Ref:3316370)

But it's not RB choosing for RBR, they're choosing for TR......

Hawkwood · 11 Oct 2013, 19:22 (Ref:3316397)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

But it's not RB choosing for RBR, they're choosing for TR......

And the only reason for STR to exist is to bring in drivers for RBR...
So (devil's advocate hat on) if a driver isn't good enough for RBR then why keep him at STR? You've already decided he isn't good enough for the only reason he's there in the first place.

Anyway (normally hat back on), I'm not actually saying JEV doesn't belong in F1, and that's not why I started the thread.

I just wanted to see who people think RB would/should choose out of JEV or AFdC if they could pick only one.

**chunterer** · 11 Oct 2013, 19:28 (Ref:3316399)

Yeah, I think people got carried away with the snub idea. Dan has a year's experience over JEV so that's the main reason he was chosen when there's not a great deal between them in reality.

JEV needs to do the best job he can next season to ensure he is all the teams minds not just Marko's

**bella** · 11 Oct 2013, 19:28 (Ref:3316400)

fun, mostly irrelevant but vaguely interesting fact: in 2009, jev and antonio felix da costa tied for second in the eurocup.

**chunterer** · 11 Oct 2013, 19:31 (Ref:3316402)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bella

fun, mostly irrelevant but vaguely interesting fact: in 2009, jev and antonio felix da costa tied for second in the eurocup.

You're dead right on all counts!

**Aysedasi** · 11 Oct 2013, 21:03 (Ref:3316444)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

And the only reason for STR to exist is to bring in drivers for RBR...

It's a good theory.......

Paradise City · 11 Oct 2013, 22:14 (Ref:3316473)

RBR, STR, JEV, AdeFC, QPR, ADDC, RSPCA...it's takin' me awhile to decode the dizzying array of acronyms on this thread.

I wonder will DM try to offload STR again this year? Having that team can't have made much sense for him. It gave him Vettel and a win I suppose but he could've easily grabbed Vettel by some other means.

wnut · 12 Oct 2013, 00:43 (Ref:3316518)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradise City

RBR, STR, JEV, AdeFC, QPR, ADDC, RSPCA...it's takin' me awhile to decode the dizzying array of acronyms on this thread.

I wonder will DM try to offload STR again this year? Having that team can't have made much sense for him. It gave him Vettel and a win I suppose but he could've easily grabbed Vettel by some other means.

Must admit to being a member of the "I hate acronym club".

When they mean something they are good, but when they are just a random collection of alphabet soup ...

ptclaus98 · 12 Oct 2013, 01:31 (Ref:3316528)

Sainz and Kyvat are no where near ready for those spots yet. I don't understand the train of thought that once a driver goes up to the big squad, it's over for the other guy. Remember when everyone the Hartley was a shoo-in for the STR seat in late 2009, then the next year JEV comes in and starts winning and then he was the future. JEV is miles more prepared, and just better overall than Sainz, or Kyvat. He and AFdC is as good of a team as STR could have for sometime. What STR needs is a better car, I'm shocked at how much leash the technical side gets compared to the drivers.

wnut · 12 Oct 2013, 01:49 (Ref:3316533)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Sainz and Kyvat are no where near ready for those spots yet. I don't understand the train of thought that once a driver goes up to the big squad, it's over for the other guy. Remember when everyone the Hartley was a shoo-in for the STR seat in late 2009, then the next year JEV comes in and starts winning and then he was the future. JEV is miles more prepared, and just better overall than Sainz, or Kyvat. He and AFdC is as good of a team as STR could have for sometime. What STR needs is a better car, I'm shocked at how much leash the technical side gets compared to the drivers.

To me, JEV looks pedestrian up against Ricciardo, therefore time to move on!
Put Sainz and Kyvat in together at STR.

The real trouble with all these driver conundrums is the inability to compare them properly in testing!

Testing - another serious problem that needs addressing!

ptclaus98 · 12 Oct 2013, 02:44 (Ref:3316543)

JEV hasn't looked much worse than Ricciardo at all. As a matter of fact, until Ricciardo got some carrot waved in front of him with the threat of Raikkonen taking a seat he thought was going to be his, you could argue that JEV was doing better.

wnut · 12 Oct 2013, 02:54 (Ref:3316546)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

JEV hasn't looked much worse than Ricciardo at all. As a matter of fact, until Ricciardo got some carrot waved in front of him with the threat of Raikkonen taking a seat he thought was going to be his, you could argue that JEV was doing better.

Quali 16-3 and 10 - 4

The cars run different strategies in the races, so the results are very difficult to compare. Pace in quali is a pretty clear indicator though, not perfect granted, but when it is so decisively biased ...

P.S. I highly respect your opinions, so I am really interested in your logic, not starting a mud fight!

**chunterer** · 12 Oct 2013, 06:49 (Ref:3316592)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Sainz and Kyvat are no where near ready for those spots yet. I don't understand the train of thought that once a driver goes up to the big squad, it's over for the other guy. Remember when everyone the Hartley was a shoo-in for the STR seat in late 2009, then the next year JEV comes in and starts winning and then he was the future. JEV is miles more prepared, and just better overall than Sainz, or Kyvat. He and AFdC is as good of a team as STR could have for sometime. What STR needs is a better car, I'm shocked at how much leash the technical side gets compared to the drivers.

Well with Mr Key and some decent technical bods coming on board in recent times, we should expect to see that team do an even better job next year!

**bella** · 12 Oct 2013, 11:11 (Ref:3316647)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

JEV hasn't looked much worse than Ricciardo at all. As a matter of fact, until Ricciardo got some carrot waved in front of him with the threat of Raikkonen taking a seat he thought was going to be his, you could argue that JEV was doing better.

as someone who likes drivers who *race* like their lives depend on it, i wholeheartedly agree.

but i think the jev vs ricciardo debate (which has soooo been overdone now) is a polariser between people who like fast drivers, and people who like good racers.

don't know if anyone read the helmut marko piece in autosport the other week, but it's a good context to view the retention of vergne in.

Hawkwood · 13 Oct 2013, 13:40 (Ref:3317146)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

It's a good theory.......

So why do Toro Rosso exist?

**Aysedasi** · 13 Oct 2013, 15:55 (Ref:3317219)

Good question.

But if they're there to feed RBR, they've done that with Ricciardo. It would be good (from my point of view) to replace Vettel with Vergne, but there was only one place to fill.....

Hawkwood · 21 Oct 2013, 21:44 (Ref:3321331)

Well, I guess Antonio Felix da Costa wasn't the correct answer after all...

Mekola · 21 Oct 2013, 22:07 (Ref:3321341)

Now is JEV or DK.

wnut · 21 Oct 2013, 22:53 (Ref:3321362)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Good question.

But if they're there to feed RBR, they've done that with Ricciardo. It would be good (from my point of view) to replace Vettel with Vergne, but there was only one place to fill.....

This is RBR and not Williams we are talking about!

wnut · 21 Oct 2013, 22:56 (Ref:3321363)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bella

as someone who likes drivers who *race* like their lives depend on it, i wholeheartedly agree.

but i think the jev vs ricciardo debate (which has soooo been overdone now) is a polariser between people who like fast drivers, and people who like good racers.

don't know if anyone read the helmut marko piece in autosport the other week, but it's a good context to view the retention of vergne in.

I'd say if you can't catch him, you can't race him!

Qualifying out of position and gradually making your way through the field, does not constitute racing!