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Old 6 Nov 2017, 02:05 (Ref:3778924)   #5221
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So what a manufacturer named McLaren might want could be different than what a manufacturer named Ford might want or Porsche, Toyota, or whoever.
What still shocks me is that this isn't just common sense by now.
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 20:35 (Ref:3780271)   #5222
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Interesting rumor dropped in my inbox today: A claim that the ACO has been in talks with the manufacturer of the DTM tubs about a spec tub for the 2020 LMP1 cars.

A spec tub could be a great way to get the manufacturer interest(if they go the "late 90s GT1" route) without the costs getting too high, but the DTM would not be a good design for LMP1 - it's a fair bit on the expensive side, and it's meant for front-engine cars only(go to the Super GT threads and you'll see a lot of talk about how much of a headache it's been to make the mid-engine Honda NSX work with that tub). But if they can get DTM and Super GT in the talks, they could certainly come up with a tub that could work for all three. And with the impending loss of Mercedes and questions as to whether Audi and BMW will remain, DTM could certainly use something new to keep them around.

Imagine if they could even make it work in a way that you could have Class One cars run alongside the dedicated LMP1 cars. I know of at least three manufacturers that would appeal to.

With that said... I doubt this is happening. This sounds like too good of an idea to have any chance of happening - in particular, I don't think the ACO would want to go the spec tub route.

Anyone else want to add their thoughts, extrapolations, etc?
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Old 13 Nov 2017, 20:40 (Ref:3780272)   #5223
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If they had it alongside a number of other constructors (see the GT300 mother chassis concept too), then I'd be fine with it. Have a ready-made chassis built to the regs and the teams only need to develop bodywork and fit an engine. If they had it as the ONLY allowable chassis, then I'd have to retort with a big fat shouty NO.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 04:26 (Ref:3780332)   #5224
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I like the idea that more first line series adopt similar rules or use common platforms, and I really like the idea of the ACO to take your TOP class to GTproto or GT1 style. However I can see that this does not fit with the DTM philosophy, which makes me think that the chassis will allow enough freedom to design a GT1 or a Touring Car around this chassis.
Therefore a DTM will have to go through major modifications to go to Le Mans.
On the other hand, I have the feeling that the SuperGT could admit GTproto or GT1, many cars of this style were in GT500 throughout its history (Porsche 962, McLaren P1 GTR, Ferrari F40, Maserati MC12 .......) And of course the Japanese brands want to go to Le Mans.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 05:56 (Ref:3780336)   #5225
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Unless all these series align in some sort of super rules that can be shared and altered, I'd rather not go down the spec route.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 11:17 (Ref:3780370)   #5226
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If they had it alongside a number of other constructors (see the GT300 mother chassis concept too), then I'd be fine with it. Have a ready-made chassis built to the regs and the teams only need to develop bodywork and fit an engine. If they had it as the ONLY allowable chassis, then I'd have to retort with a big fat shouty NO.
It's not just bodywork and engine under this idea. If you were adapting the entirety of the current SGT/DTM concept, it's also all the other stuff like the suspension - it'd be literally EVERYTHING except the actual driver's compartment(and probably a couple of other crash-safety components).

Now, most of those parts are restricted under current DTM/SGT rules but they're still manufacturer-built, and I would hope that if they went this route LMP1 wouldn't be terribly restrictive. (but it is the ACO we're talking about)

So the idea's not exactly speccing up the class so much as taking the big expensive part that manufacturers are least likely to be bothered by not controlling out of the development equation. I could get behind it, but the way the stars would have to align to make this happen....
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 19:11 (Ref:3780437)   #5227
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https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1...road-car-looks

The idea would borrow a key element from the latest GTE regulations introduced ahead of the 2016 WEC season. Competing manufacturers would be given an aerodynamic performance window in which their car would have to sit to ensure a level playing field.


Oh **** no. Please ACO do not **** this up, just when LMP1 was getting great again.

Same with spec tubs.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 19:18 (Ref:3780439)   #5228
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If we're just doing BoP, then just do DPi. DPi is great. The only reason I don't want it for LMP1 is because all it is is prettied up LMP2s with a BoP. So if we're going down the route of BoP and artificially good looking cars, then don't reinvent the wheel - just use DPi. It already works.

I'd rather have an actual performance class as LMP1 then LMP2s in drag. But if that's the route we're going, then I don't see the point in not using DPi.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 19:32 (Ref:3780444)   #5229
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I despise "DPi" just as much as I do GTE-model so I'd be indifferent in both cases. Just give me honest prototypes, as in P-R-O-T-O-T-Y-P-E-S.

Why do they feel the need to reinvent the wheel all the time, just push the next cycle back to 2025 or whatever and let's just see how this evolves. We have great LMP1 field forming up now for 2018 and beyond, with real cars and not artificial BoP lottery or other sticker spec engineering nonsense. They always babble on about stability, so have that then!

I mean sure the mfgs want new shiny trendy things but they always do. At the end they are there to just win Le Mans anyway, whatever the concept behind. You can implement those things through evolutions rather than revolutions anyway.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 20:02 (Ref:3780448)   #5230
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If we're just doing BoP, then just do DPi. DPi is great. The only reason I don't want it for LMP1 is because all it is is prettied up LMP2s with a BoP. So if we're going down the route of BoP and artificially good looking cars, then don't reinvent the wheel - just use DPi. It already works.

I'd rather have an actual performance class as LMP1 then LMP2s in drag. But if that's the route we're going, then I don't see the point in not using DPi.
The problem with DPi is that manufacturers aren't quite as interested in it as IMSA, and certain journalists, would have us believe.

Yes, there's been a lot of talk of manufacturers evaluating programs, but program evaluations ultimately mean nothing - any manufacturer with a motorsport program will evaluate ANY class that has even the remotest possibility of fitting their program goals. If evaluations meant anything, the sheer number of DPi evaluations would have generated at least two more programs than we've gotten.

Combine that with the impending 2020 rules revamps, and unless we get an announcement within the next couple weeks(allowing for the sort of timeframe the ESM program had) I don't think we'll be seeing any more manufacturers in DPi.

IMO, the issue that keeps a lot of manufacturers from committing to DPi is that a pretty big chunk of them want to build their own cars, not just do engine and limited aero work - but they don't want building their own car to cost P1-H prices. I can see how a spec tub where they build the entire rest of the car can be appealing, especially if the tub design allows for them to go for road car styling OR pure prototype.

I think there'd be a fair few manufacturers in LMP1-L if they were allowed in that class.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 20:19 (Ref:3780452)   #5231
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Yes evaluations mean nothing - actual projects mean something, and there are 4 DPi manufacturers. Nobody believes the rumours posted on S365, we're talking about actual products - and DPi is a much more popular one than anything else right now. We can sit and say that manufacturers want to build there own cars, but there's very little evidence of this. We could say LMP1-H got too expensive so isn't a good example, but before that we weren't overflowing either.

I don't want a BoP Drag class as the top sportscar class in the world. But if the ACO does decide that a BoP drag class is what they want for LMP1, then DPi already exists and is a perfectly good product that fits those parameters. I don't see the point in using a different set of rules if you're using the same philosophy.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 20:43 (Ref:3780454)   #5232
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Yes evaluations mean nothing - actual projects mean something, and there are 4 DPi manufacturers. Nobody believes the rumours posted on S365, we're talking about actual products - and DPi is a much more popular one than anything else right now. We can sit and say that manufacturers want to build there own cars, but there's very little evidence of this. We could say LMP1-H got too expensive so isn't a good example, but before that we weren't overflowing either.
Well, here's something to think about regarding the attractiveness of DPi relative to other clases.

Every manufacturer in DPi was already involved with either DP or LMP prior to the creation of DPi. Honda had P1 and P2 cars, Mazda was running a P2 car, GM had the Corvette DP, and Nissan was the least involved by merely providing the most popular P2 engine for WEC and ELMS(which makes it unsurprising that they're least involved in their DPi program - Ed Brown and Ligier have put more money into the program than Nissan).

When you consider that it's not a poor assumption to conclude that DPi's success isn't so much about being attractive to manufacturers as it is that it's the only class that made any sense for such programs to be shifted to. It's even believed that the delay in Honda starting their DPi program had much to do with initially wanting to build their own car; GM and Mazda obviously weren't concerned with that, after all, both of their programs relied on cars built by other dedicated chassis manufacturers.

But the most widely popular classes historically for manufacturer participation HAVE been build-your-own-car classes. GTP, GT1, DTM, Super GT, etc. Whether true GTs or prototypes or prototypes disguised as GTs, history shows us that manufacturers do for the most part want to build their own cars.

History also shows us that the moment the costs get too high they'll abandon ship faster than you can snap your fingers.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 20:56 (Ref:3780456)   #5233
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I think there'd be a fair few manufacturers in LMP1-L if they were allowed in that class.
Well they are allowed now.

Ginetta could enter as GINETTA if they wished. Or whoever else. The old artificial restrictions have been axed away for this cycle. Out of necessity yes, not because it's what they they wished, but in any case they are no longer there.

Besides "LMP1-L" hasn't existed for 3 seasons now, and even the "privateer trophy" has been demolished for good finally, wisely.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 21:05 (Ref:3780458)   #5234
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I'm not sure what your point is. IMSA made an attractive class, regardless of where the manufacturers came from.

Using the same metric of retaining manufacturers, Le Mans lost Peugeot, Audi, Porsche and Nissan. You could argue costs were too high, but when it was cheaper we weren't tripping over manufacturers either.

Historical data like that ignores the lack of manufacturers in LMP1/LMP900, on both sides of the pond. Also ignores that DTM is at deaths door with a record low manufacturer entry. So it can be rationalised anyway someone wants, saying "Well what manufacturers ACTUALLY want is this", but recent history disagrees - DPi is the most popular manufacturer based prototype series in the world right now (even if you include GT500).

So theory based on history is great. But practically, DPi is doing great. So if we're going to go down the route of a purchased chassis, some branded drag bodywork, and a balance of performance, then DPi seems just fine. Anything else is overkill - the idea of spending money to build your own car just to have it BoP'd down is particularly silly.

Personally I'd rather see more traditional racing with actual manufacturer cars (with a healthy amount of private cars somewhere in there too). I'd personally make spec hybrid systems to make them more accessible. But if we're going down the route of BoP's a branded drag body work, then I don't see a reason to not use DPi.

Edit: and Chiana is spot on - there's no requirement to run a hybrid as a manufacturer in LMP1 for 2018.

Last edited by Akrapovic; 14 Nov 2017 at 21:10.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 21:12 (Ref:3780460)   #5235
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I'm not sure what your point is. IMSA made an attractive class, regardless of where the manufacturers came from.

Using the same metric of retaining manufacturers, Le Mans lost Peugeot, Audi, Porsche and Nissan. You could argue costs were too high, but when it was cheaper we weren't tripping over manufacturers either.

Historical data like that ignores the lack of manufacturers in LMP1/LMP900, on both sides of the pond. Also ignores that DTM is at deaths door with a record low manufacturer entry. So it can be rationalised anyway someone wants, saying "Well what manufacturers ACTUALLY want is this", but recent history disagrees - DPi is the most popular manufacturer based prototype series in the world right now (even if you include GT500).

So theory based on history is great. But practically, DPi is doing great. So if we're going to go down the route of a purchased chassis, some branded drag bodywork, and a balance of performance, then DPi seems just fine. Anything else is overkill - the idea of spending money to build your own car just to have it BoP'd down is particularly silly.

Personally I'd rather see more traditional racing with actual manufacturer cars (with a healthy amount of private cars somewhere in there too). I'd personally make spec hybrid systems to make them more accessible. But if we're going down the route of BoP's a branded drag body work, then I don't see a reason to not use DPi.
You can technically also include Aston Martin into that list as well.

ANYWAY. How can anyone in their right mind claim that the manufacturer participation in "DPi" is anything more than smokes and mirrors? Just because they supply you an engine and put forward the most modest of "efforts" possible doesn't really scream any participation to me, it just says, I don't know, cheap corporate sponsorship. It's just like Formula E or NASCAR to me, wolf under sheeps clothing, ILLUSION of manufacturer interest and participation while in reality there's really nothing but cars made by other people run by small to medium sized privateer teams. Public relations nonsense.

Even half-hearted Toyota alone in LMP1 is more mfg participation than every rebadge name showing up in "DPi" put together.
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