[Official] Abu Dhabi Grand Prix 2016: Grand Prix Weekend Thread

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Daytona 24 hours is on January 28-29 next year. I'm looking forward to that.

Ahh, that is for a different forum. This one will be discussions about who is getting sacked, how much longer BE will be in charge (or alive) and psychological interpretations of why people pick particular avatar images.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Ahh, that is for a different forum. This one will be discussions about who is getting sacked, how much longer BE will be in charge (or alive) and psychological interpretations of why people pick particular avatar images.

Richard

I know it's for a different forum but I thought you'd like to know, you don't have to wait too long for the racing to begin again.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I know it's for a different forum but I thought you'd like to know, you don't have to wait too long for the racing to begin again.

And rallying doesn't stop for the winter - plenty going on still

Wandering further and further off topic here

So - about that F1 thing then........

[Mike Bell]

So how about the possibility that the whole thing was choreographed to boost interest in F1.............

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

So how about the possibility that the whole thing was choreographed to boost interest in F1.............

Another conspiracy! Mercedes wanted a German Champion!

[bauble]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Winning the 2007 Brazilian GP wouldn't have given Massa the WDC as he wasn't a championship contender. Lewis was the other championship contender and reigning champion, going into the last race. That's the difference.

BJ; Coulthard handed the lead in Australia to his team mate Hakkinnen, because the team had made an error in their strategy, allowing DC to overtake him. It could have cost him the Championship at the end of year but he did the right thing. Nico allowed Lewis past in Monaco, Verstappen just refuses. Different attitudes to life generally.

First to the life boat, or 'Women and children first'.

We all admire different people for just these reasons, for me Massa will always be the epitome of a true sportsman. I suspect you consider Lewis is?

[bella]

dunno about all this true "sportsman" bo.. nonsense, it's based on values that are hard to nail down and as the car swapping story shows, not really valid in modern f1. there's so much more resting on things nowadays, you're not looking at a sport thats reported on in newspapers and newsreels, it's the internet and social media. drivers represent multiple brands, hundreds of people work for teams... it's much more complex than it was. you can't go looking for sportsmanship on the scale of the brownlee brothers in f1. it's not compatible.

but if i had to name a true "sportsman", i think nico is pretty close. to a modern team/workforce, he's the perfect driver to work with and for. he's fantastic with the press, i love how he dropped his guard after the abu dhabi race and spoke honestly and openly. but also apologised profusely for not being so open in the first place. he might lack the character and fire of someone like hamilton but that's literally exactly what makes lewis not a "sportsman" in so many peoples eyes...

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Wims

Who cares about my profile picture? I typically use a picture of whoever has some kind of media momentum. I've been using pictures of vettel, kimi, lewis, alonso, romain etc etc. I have been meaning to start using Niko's picture, haven't gotten time to do it yet, but thanks for the reminder, I'll switch to Rosbergs picture for sure

Sorry, there was no offence meant, my comment was very 'tongue in cheek'. (It's hard to make that obvious when typing however).
In my excitement at making what I thought was a pithy & witty comment I completely forgot the smilie.
So please accept another

[Mike Harte]

Bella, the problem is that for us old fogeys that can actually remember the days of swapping cars in F1, it only seems like a year or so ago that driver swaps were allowed in the Le Mans 24. And I am pretty damn certain that the replaced driver didn't go up to his boss and suggest the change-over before it happened.

But you "sucked" it up, because you were a team member.

[gert]

Originally Posted by bauble

First to the life boat, or 'Women and children first'.

Men first, surely?
Who else would a) row the boat and b) help the women and children get in?

[chillibowl]

i dont get that to be honest.

how is swapping a car good sportsmanship?

perhaps good sportsmanship by the person giving up the car but it seems like a very self serving action by the person who takes the car and opportunity to succeed away from their team mate. that doesnt seem very sporting at all.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by bauble

BJ; Coulthard handed the lead in Australia to his team mate Hakkinnen, because the team had made an error in their strategy, allowing DC to overtake him. It could have cost him the Championship at the end of year but he did the right thing. Nico allowed Lewis past in Monaco, Verstappen just refuses. Different attitudes to life generally.

First to the life boat, or 'Women and children first'.

We all admire different people for just these reasons, for me Massa will always be the epitome of a true sportsman. I suspect you consider Lewis is?

A team error is a little different.

No, not at all. I don't like Lewis's petulance and sulky attitude when things don't go his way; not worthy of a three times WDC. It's a pity he didn't learn a little humility from Jenson Button, when they were at McLaren together.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i dont get that to be honest.

how is swapping a car good sportsmanship?

perhaps good sportsmanship by the person giving up the car but it seems like a very self serving action by the person who takes the car and opportunity to succeed away from their team mate. that doesnt seem very sporting at all.

Because the team owners/managers told them to swap over - simple as that. And I am sure that the driver gifted the car was always appreciative of the hand-over.

And I cannot remember any of the motoring press once making a big deal out of it; it was acceptable then, and it was considered good sportsmanship by the disappointed driver.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Because the team owners/managers told them to swap over - simple as that. And I am sure that the driver gifted the car was always appreciative of the hand-over.

And I cannot remember any of the motoring press once making a big deal out of it; it was acceptable then, and it was considered good sportsmanship by the disappointed driver.

no doubt Schumi was always appreciative as well when the bosses commanded the other driver to swap places (or their engine customer was expected to play blocker) but i dont think anyone would advance the argument that Ferrari or Schumi, or this type of behaviour, were examples of those who exhibited a high level of sporting character.

'the boss told me to do that' works in some cases but its not a universal defense.

anyways, to be honest i dont think LH is a particularity good example of a good sportsman either (i think he is a great driver but so are others as well) so i agree with you there but i do quite strongly believe that team orders is anathema to the concept of fair and open competition.

imo team orders are actually a form of collusion. im not sure they can be dressed up any other way.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

imo team orders are actually a form of collusion. im not sure they can be dressed up any other way.

I sort of understand where you are coming from, but there are team orders and team instructions.

I also do not approve of the orders for one driver to pull over so that the favoured driver in the team can win, especially when the win would be undeserved. However, this was an exceptional case where the team was actually instructing the lead driver to speed up, to ensure that his team-mate and him were out of harms' way from a potentially faster rival.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but i do quite strongly believe that team orders is anathema to the concept of fair and open competition.

imo team orders are actually a form of collusion. im not sure they can be dressed up any other way.

just to clarify that point...i do accept that things were different in the past.

today it is different in that the size of the budgets, the involvement of multinationals, satisfying sponsors and generating flattering headlines means its impossible to separate team orders from the teams need to satisfy their commercial interests.

no doubt those motives existed in the past as well but the balance is so much more towards the money side of things that following team orders is, now days, inherently a much less noble (for lack of a better word) action.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

...but there are team orders and team instructions.

indeed.

i guess the difficult part of this for me is not so much about Merc's relatively benign suggestion that LH speed up but much more about the reopening a can of worms surrounding some of the more dubious and/or extreme recent examples of team orders at play.

its 'a slippery slope' kind of line of thinking i am having here

[2GRX7]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I sort of understand where you are coming from, but there are team orders and team instructions.

I also do not approve of the orders for one driver to pull over so that the favoured driver in the team can win, especially when the win would be undeserved. However, this was an exceptional case where the team was actually instructing the lead driver to speed up, to ensure that his team-mate and him were out of harms' way from a potentially faster rival.

They were instructing the lead driver to speed up so that THEY (BOTH drivers) wouldn't get overtaken? Like, both overtaken, AT THE SAME TIME?!!!

If you're racing a car in front of you and a faster car comes up from behind, you are now forced into concentrating on the car behind you. Your aggressive, attacking posture now becomes defensive, slowing your overall lap times because you're now not racing on the racing line, so you're not going as fast as you possibly can through the corner. You are also not braking at the optimal point.

This is what Hamilton was working towards. He knew with his reduced speed in the corners that he'd have a lot of tire left to contain Vettel's challenge, had Vettel caught up to him (Hammy would've been GONE once Rosberg started his defensive braking maneuvers).

Both Rosberg and Vettel had one issue to contend with that Lewis didn't-excessive tire wear from following/attacking a competitor. If Rosberg is passed by Vettel and Versteppen seizes the opportunity...Hamilton's champ.

...Then, to hear those orders from his team-especially a team with 'racers" at the top level, I'm sure, gutted him! I would have been ****ed too! Other than at the start, when have you seen a late race, double overtaking maneuver from the top four teams?

Hey the Constructors championship was already decided several races back. This was a VERY inappropriate call!

Now, if the team knew for a fact that Rosberg was going to take out Hamilton if Rosberg got backed up and overtaken (thus securing the championship, e.g., Senna/Prost) and didn't want the damnation that would have caused, then I'd understand broadcasting that team order (not that Rosberg would do that).

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by 2GRX7

This is what Hamilton was working towards. He knew with his reduced speed in the corners that he'd have a lot of tire left to contain Vettel's challenge, had Vettel caught up to him (Hammy would've been GONE once Rosberg started his defensive braking maneuvers).

You are giving Hamilton far too much credit.

If one thing has been proven over all the years that he has been in F1, it is that he is not a thinking driver. He has never been able to create a strategy whilst behind the wheel, and he has always relied on his pit team to devise his actions.

And it's not my opinion that I am stating concerning his refusal to follow his team's directions; this is what they are saying. They were all concerned that the win might be taken from them, and that is why they escalated the radio call to come from Paddy Lowe. And Wolff has also said that it was a good thing that he doesn't have the facility to speak directly to the drivers, otherwise he might have said a few choice words.

One thing that seems to have been apparent is that, whilst they shared their joy at Rosberg finally achieving his first WDC, they are underneath seething about Hamilton's total lack of care about whether he won or not, all because he was throwing a hissy-fit over the fact that it was becoming evident that he was not going to retain his crown.

[merak1974]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Jack Brabham 1966, Denny Hulme 1967 - Brabham. Guiseppe Farina 1950, Fangio 1951 - Maserati. Thanks to Wiki, usual caveats.

Farina and Fangio drove Alfa Romeos in 1950 and 1951, respectively... Fangio, of course, won F1 titles driving a Maserati, but some years later; 1954 (he also drove Mercedes that year) and 1957.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by 2GRX7

They were instructing the lead driver to speed up so that THEY (BOTH drivers) wouldn't get overtaken? Like, both overtaken, AT THE SAME TIME?!!!

If you're racing a car in front of you and a faster car comes up from behind, you are now forced into concentrating on the car behind you. Your aggressive, attacking posture now becomes defensive, slowing your overall lap times because you're now not racing on the racing line, so you're not going as fast as you possibly can through the corner. You are also not braking at the optimal point.

This is what Hamilton was working towards. He knew with his reduced speed in the corners that he'd have a lot of tire left to contain Vettel's challenge, had Vettel caught up to him (Hammy would've been GONE once Rosberg started his defensive braking maneuvers).

Both Rosberg and Vettel had one issue to contend with that Lewis didn't-excessive tire wear from following/attacking a competitor. If Rosberg is passed by Vettel and Versteppen seizes the opportunity...Hamilton's champ.

...Then, to hear those orders from his team-especially a team with 'racers" at the top level, I'm sure, gutted him! I would have been ****ed too! Other than at the start, when have you seen a late race, double overtaking maneuver from the top four teams?

Hey the Constructors championship was already decided several races back. This was a VERY inappropriate call!

Now, if the team knew for a fact that Rosberg was going to take out Hamilton if Rosberg got backed up and overtaken (thus securing the championship, e.g., Senna/Prost) and didn't want the damnation that would have caused, then I'd understand broadcasting that team order (not that Rosberg would do that).

LOL! There you go again The whole world knows why Hamilton slowed down.

[2GRX7]

BOOOOOBEEEC! You're alive! Where have you been?Miss you!

[bobec]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't understand what you mean. Lewis had not lost the championship yet. He did not accept defeat until the race was over and did everything in his power to win the title. That's racing

I feel like they were asking him to race. It's not like he was told "Nico is faster than you. Can you confirm you understand"

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Well on this forum we have people saying Lewis is a bad sport for not rolling over accepting defeat

I'm personally disappointed with Hamilton, who I think is a great driver, but also not a great person. Just days before the race, he went into detail about how he would NOT do what he did. He kept saying he just wants to have the best race he can and finish first as far ahead as possible. Having done exactly the opposite, I feel he is not a man of his word. I also think it would have been so much more graceful and worthy of merit if he just raced as hard as he could, concentrating on his race. At some point you have to accept you've missed the championship and shine however you can - by showing you are the fastest, showing you are a great racer who is after all above even titles and championships, showing you are also a team player, etc. Sometimes greatness can be found in the way you handle losing.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Senna, Prost, Mansell, Schumacher - they'd have all ignored a team order to give up the championship - and that's exactly what Lewis did. The idea of telling Senna to give up the title to Prost is hilarious. I wonder what his reaction would've been.

Schumacher seems to have benefited a lot from team orders, and he was always the designated number 1 driver. But Senna and Prost...I don't recall any team orders. I also can't picture Senna doing what Hamilton did. He always raced hard, always for the win. He always wanted to show he was the fastest.

So back to Hamilton. I feel like a true legend would not have approached it that way. I think he could have tried to focus more on trying to trick Nico into trying to pass him, and then put him into a trap. Yes, it's risky. given the points and the possibility of contact and retirement, but that's also true for Nico. And it would have been racing.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by 2GRX7

BOOOOOBEEEC! You're alive! Where have you been?Miss you!

Just been busy defending TDI engines in the US

[2GRX7]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

You are giving Hamilton far too much credit.

If one thing has been proven over all the years that he has been in F1, it is that he is not a thinking driver. He has never been able to create a strategy whilst behind the wheel, and he has always relied on his pit team to devise his actions.

And it's not my opinion that I am stating concerning his refusal to follow his team's directions; this is what they are saying. They were all concerned that the win might be taken from them, and that is why they escalated the radio call to come from Paddy Lowe. And Wolff has also said that it was a good thing that he doesn't have the facility to speak directly to the drivers, otherwise he might have said a few choice words.

One thing that seems to have been apparent is that, whilst they shared their joy at Rosberg finally achieving his first WDC, they are underneath seething about Hamilton's total lack of care about whether he won or not, all because he was throwing a hissy-fit over the fact that it was becoming evident that he was not going to retain his crown.

Actually, I think you're discounting his intellect! Nico was the worst perp when it came to calling his pits for advice/intel on driving technique (compared to Hammy). Don't know if you heard those conversations where you are, but Nico's pit calls made him look completely incompetent. I remember when the first stages of the ban was enforced, Nico was nowhere near Hamilton (Singapore Grand Prix Sept 2014). It was Nico that needed to up his game, not Hamilton.