Simona's fire & the pathetic attempt to put it out..

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by wnut

I hope the F1 guys have been looking and taking notes now that they have conveniently forgotten about fire hazards and doubled the fuel loads!

F1 don't use dedicated safety teams. The marshals at a GP fall into one of two categories:

1) Highly experienced, well trained and working many meetings a year at all kinds of circuits.
2) Never been to a motor race before (or at best, worked the GP in previous visits to their middle-of-nowhere track.

Some circuits ship in a varying number of 1) to give 2) a fighting chance. There are many places where I fear an accident of the type seen in this thread because the local experience may make that video look like good practice.

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

I don't think there is an easy way of cutting them now, here's a little more on the construction

Cutting gear carried on most units would deal with them fairly easily. However you want to keep such cutting to a minimum because it's more time consuming and can cause additional distress to the patient.

[Hepatic]

some response to the investigation in to the failure to deal with the incident. interestingly, its much what we've suggested in this thread

http://jalopnik.com/5566009/

[Woolley]

Sounds like someone forgot to include fire training in the last few updates. Good on them for being honest, though. Quite refreshing in this day and age.

[Stuart Hill]

but why is it that somewhere like Mallory Park (no offense, but very much smaller than IRL), has fire vehicles with trained fire marshals on-board and no hose reel, just pull it out the back and it's ready to go?

I still can't understand why the first man on-scene didn't take a dry powder.

basics or what???

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

but why is it that somewhere like Mallory Park (no offense, but very much smaller than IRL), has fire vehicles with trained fire marshals on-board and no hose reel, just pull it out the back and it's ready to go?

I still can't understand why the first man on-scene didn't take a dry powder.

basics or what???

First two marshalls at the accident should have powder!
The @#$%^& things fail!

You are absolutely right - basics or what???


I am also dreading the next F1 fire near the beginning of a race with massive fuel loads, and Woolley's post does not give me any confidence at all!

Then after a tradgedy we'll have all the idiots standing around saying they were unprepared to deal with the unpredictable nature of the accident and its consequences or some such rubbish.

No history shows us clearly that vast amounts of fuel go off like a bomb and the consequences are both predictable and certain!

Nice to see the admission that they screwed up in this case though - hopefully they learn and deal with it better in future.

[wnut]

Here is a hypothetical:

If Roger Williamson's accident happpened in Indy Car or F1 tomorrow, what would his chances of survival be?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Here is a hypothetical:

If Roger Williamson's accident happpened in Indy Car or F1 tomorrow, what would his chances of survival be?

The cause or the unfortunate outcome?

[JagtechOhio]

The outcome defies the imagination and requires no explanation.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

some response to the investigation in to the failure to deal with the incident. interestingly, its much what we've suggested in this thread

http://jalopnik.com/5566009/

that's it? nothing about why the driver was stuck?

at least the IRL.com article enlightened about why the fire was so large:

the oil cooler of the No. 78 car was ripped off and with the engine still running the oil pump spewed its contents (about 4 U.S. gallons) on the right side of the chassis, combining with oxygen to fuel the fire.

but it took them nearly 2 weeks just to tell us the fire crews fouled up??
well done.
am i missing something or are they still waiting some sort of test results?

[JagtechOhio]

Yep. An inertia switch to kill the engine on impact is NOBODY'S BUSINESS.
Either is modifying the headrest mounting.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The cause or the unfortunate outcome?

Sorry what I meant was if an uninjured driver was trapped under a burning car with a ruptured fuel tank, what would be the chance of the marshalls effecting his rescue, preferably uninjured.

This should also be the most inconvenient point of the circuit for the crews to get to!

Please don't say it can't happen... it must be planned for.

Milka's fire was a Mickey Mouse fire ... how short some people's memories are!

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by wnut

Sorry what I meant was if an uninjured driver was trapped under a burning car with a ruptured fuel tank, what would be the chance of the marshalls effecting his rescue, preferably uninjured.

Depends entirely on which circuit it happened at. I can only speak knowledgeably for Silverstone but I'm confident that at the British GP he would stand the highest chance of the least injury resulting from that scenario. Trained, experienced marshals placed at regular intervals around the circuit should be able to get there quickly and in every case where significant fire has occurred recently have proved to be able to deal with it effectively.

There are other circuits where I would expect the result to be similar, and some where I wouldn't like to have an accident of any sort, never mind one involving fire. Prior to this, I would have included the IRL at the higher end of the scale on the basis of my experience of Simple Green and other crews, but it seems something has occurred - I hope as a temporary aberration - that has affected their performance.

As far as F1 is concerned, it might be worth reminding drivers that their chances will be greatly improved if their colleagues could be trusted to obey yellow flag signals to allow the marshals to intervene without having to check their own safety first, and if the FIA reintroduced proper flag signals to give those drivers an earlier warning.

[wnut]

Thanks for your input Woolley.

Is there an FIA protocol where it is specified what the marshalls will do when they arrive at the scene?

Park the rescue vehicle to shield personell from the track.
Two marshalls to provide primary response with powder extinguishers etc.
The tools and protective gear that the marshalls will be wearing at all times.
A few years ago the marshalls had to have individduals dressed in full fire proof gear for the duration of the race - this seems to no longer be in place.


Your point regarding proper flag signals to prevent injury to emergency staff is a shocker - amazing that it can be allowed in this day and age!

[Asp]

Originally Posted by wnut

Is there an FIA protocol where it is specified what the marshalls will do when they arrive at the scene?

Nope - but there is local training that should follow the same principles generally.

Park the rescue vehicle to shield personell from the track.
At a lot of circuits (including F1), the first response isn't provided by a rescue vehicle, but by marshals on foot. Hence the greater need to pay attention to yellows. But, when a truck arrives, yes it should park defensively.
Two marshalls to provide primary response with powder extinguishers etc.
Standard principle in the UK is that a pair of marshals will attend with a set of bottles - one powder, one foam. If two teams arrive at the same time, then they can work in pairs better, but it depends how far the marshals are spread out etc. Either way - powder first to knock down, foam to seal off and contain.
The tools and protective gear that the marshalls will be wearing at all times.
A few years ago the marshalls had to have individduals dressed in full fire proof gear for the duration of the race - this seems to no longer be in place.
No.
The risk of fire is now reduced sufficiently that the need to wear full-on fire protective suits is negated - they're very hot! Effective fire-fighting can be done without getting so close you need fire proof gear. UK marshals invariably where flame retardent proban overalls to give some protection. Some countries though you'll see marshals in T-shirts...

[wnut]

Thanks for the detailed response Asp!

I have great respect for the work that the marshalls do.

I think your response regarding lack of protocols whilst showing that certain circuits have local response protocols in place show that the FIA has a great deal of work to do!
I know the fire proof suits are hot, but they provide the best way of rapidly releasing a trapped driver. Marshalls dressed to driver spec with a better helmet that they can simply pull on may be a better system.

The FIA need to urgently provide all circuits with marshalling protocols, then at least the local personnel know what is expected, and can try to improve what they are doing! I appreciate providing international experienced marshalls helps, but a guidelie would help again.

On a separate note it has always worried me that so little equipment is available to right or lift an overturned car. If we look at the Williamson accident, a simple crow bar in Purley's hands would have saved his life!

It is of concern that Simona's fire was so small and so badly dealt with!
The racing fraternity must put the steps in place to deal with a massive fuel fire.
We are constantly seeing accidents where car structures are severely damaged and a major fire cannot be far off!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by wnut

. . .
I know the fire proof suits are hot, but they provide the best way of rapidly releasing a trapped driver. Marshalls dressed to driver spec with a better helmet that they can simply pull on may be a better system. . .

I'd like to disagree most fundamentally with this opinion. There is no place for anyone planning to pull drivers from a burning vehicle. Any marshal who is too hot when fighting a fire is too close!

We need to control and extinguish a fire first. Appropriate medical and extrication needs can then be dealt with in measured time and without any need to put attending personnel at risk.

I've been trained/worked in a fire entry suit and it has no place in trackside work. It is no use suggesting that marshals be equipped to work in a fire in anything less than a fire entry suit and race apparel is not that. (Your face and nose and airway are always exposed.) Dragging a driver out of a car is a sign that the planned methods have failed. The discussion about how the head restraint systems can be removed is irrelevant because they are not intended to be used in other than a controlled way, not in a fire-driven rush. (Of course they can be reviewed to see if there are improvements and teams can be penalised for taping them down!)

Hand-held extinguishers will always be the key to that end. Combined and co-ordinated use of dry powder and foam works well in all the situations have seen in over thirty years of training marshals here in the UK. Truck mounted equipment may have a back-up or major fuel spill role (and may, of course, be used to transport the hand-held extinguishers and hands to the incident).

(Nothing of the above should be taken as criticism of the people who, faced with equipment failure, did a brave job in removing the driver as their only alternative. I'm simply saying that no one should be planning for that route.)

Regards

Jim

[JagtechOhio]

Agreed that the headrest issues are not relevant to this incident for the most part.

Simona stated that it is not a problem to get out of the car with it still in place, unless someone is trying to yank you out sideways.

Time was wasted by the driver and first responder trying to remove it. There may be circumstances where a headrest which is easier to remove or relocate would be a benefit.

But you're quite right, this is an issue of fighting the fire properly so as not to require a hasty driver exit.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by wnut

I know the fire proof suits are hot, but they provide the best way of rapidly releasing a trapped driver. Marshalls dressed to driver spec with a better helmet that they can simply pull on may be a better system.

No. The best way of rapidly releasing the driver is to exintinguish the fire. Fire suit or not, I'm not going into a burning vehicle. Also following an incident sufficient to cause such a fire it may be that the driver is best released slowly and carefully. Dragging them out may reduce their burns, but if it is at the expense of exacerbating neck injuries then you're probably not achieving an overall benefit.

[edit]didn't realise it had gone over the page so didn't spot Jim had beaten me to it. As a back up to his words, I have experienced Jim's fire training and it rates at the highest level. Most of what I know about fire-fighting came from those sessions. Cheers, Mr Whit.[/edit]

[bjohnsonsmith]

Autosport have this on the incident:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84536

[wnut]

Quote from http://www.ausringers.com/2008/03/04...gp-part-1.html

...... but also of the men who saved Lauda from his Ferrari fireball. Fellow drivers Brett Lunger, Arturo Merzario, Guy Edwards and Harald Ertl were responsible for extricating Lauda from his car and their ability to think calmly in such dire circumstances was an amazing feat. It is reasonably easy to surmise what the outcome for Lauda would have been had they not shown such fortitude. From Zwickl’s article, Lauda says, “It must have been about 900 degrees. Thankfully, I don’t know anything else about it.”

Mike Hailwood also received the Gearge medal for extricating Clay Regazzoni from a burning car. Without Hailwood, Regazzoni would have died!

I either of the instances the driver would have died from burns either gas inhalation or exteranal had he not been rescued by his colleagues.
Fortunately in neither of the accidents was the driver trapped under the car....

In a fire the driver cannot imo be left until the blaze is under control, he has to be extracted as fast as possible or he will die because of the extreme temperatures involved.

On a separate not the risk of fire alone should dictate that refueling is brought back into F1.

[Woolley]

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. Dragging a driver with a broken neck from a burning car probably results in a corpse free of burns.

Unfortunately in the 70s and before drivers died of burns as a result of effectively sitting in a fuel bath surrounded by tanks. Cars, fuel bladders and fire breaks were not what they are now where fire is a massively reduced risk. Modern extinguishers and trained marshals should be able to extinguish any blaze in a remarkably short period - certainly within the survivability period - although there I'm sad to note videos still show occasions where it doesn't happen as it should, and that needs to be improved upon.

Regarding refuelling, I'd suggest that's not as obvious as it seems. Fuel vapour is far more combustible than fuel, so a half empty tank is potentially more dangerous.

[wnut]

Thanks JimW and Woolley.

Woolleys' line
"Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. Dragging a driver with a broken neck from a burning car probably results in a corpse free of burns."

Can be appreciated, but I feel that motor racing has been far more guilty of burning lightly or hardly injured drivers to death than aggravating existing injuries.

I think the real issue is one of proportionality. In the case of a small or controlled fire where the driver is not directly exposed then the preferable
course of action would be to put the fire out and stabilize the situation.

However in a severe fire the driver must be extricated immediately otherwise there is no need to bother. The human body does not last very long at 900 degrees! It is this scenario that must at least be planned for otherwise it is just too late!

The fuel tanks are half the size when refueling is allowed, so in any accident the fuel load is reduced to half what it would have otherwise been.
The half full space is half of the larger tank and full of explosafe, and the energy to be absorbed in a crash is half of what it would have been.
120 litres of fuel doing 300 kph is a lot of energy in kinetic and potential terms!

[mountainstar]

As a driver, assuming I am out of it and can't get out myself, I'd rather them put the fire out than make a half hearted attempt at putting out the fire and trying to yank my neck off my shoulders at the same time.

[wnut]

Hi mountainstar - go to the ausringer site and look at Lauda's accident and then answer the question again.

Under a full fire I think you may want to be out immediately, but I respect where you guys are comming from but for myself I remain terrified of being burn't or breathing in the hot gasses!

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by wnut

Hi mountainstar - go to the ausringer site and look at Lauda's accident and then answer the question again.

Under a full fire I think you may want to be out immediately, but I respect where you guys are comming from but for myself I remain terrified of being burn't or breathing in the hot gasses!

Oh believe me I am well versed about the Lauda accident. I have Guy Edwards book and have a few of Lauda's books as well.

Different situation, different times. Sure no or few marshals, no extinguishers or few, yes that was a different situation and yeah I'd rather be rescued from the car.

But I am talking about modern day with tracks and marshals that meet a standard under FIA guidelines and I'd rather have them get the fire out or under control(assuming I am stuck) which these days with modern safety cells and equipment is not likely to be like the old days with burst fuel bags and all. Or at least beat the fire back.