Toleman TG280 (and Lola T850 & T860) - Page 3

Steve Wilkinson · 23 Jan 2005, 16:53 (Ref:1207987)

Well don't just sit there!

dereklola · 23 Jan 2005, 18:40 (Ref:1208055)

My turn to be pedantic -

- there were three different designs of rear suspension for the RT2 [depending on when they were built] and two for the TG280 - and they are all different! Let me know if you need pics.

driftwood · 23 Jan 2005, 19:08 (Ref:1208070)

being pedantic is what motor racing is all about
yes derek yr right re 2 different set ups on front as well as rear of tolemans or shall we call the cars ralts !
If we are on the subject of what makes a car what do we call the mexican f2 cars circa 89-94 then?
these where space frame cars that looked just like rt4 with the body on
not sure who made them or whetehr they used any ralt parts
or the south african Lant
is that a ralt built under licence or a copy of a ralt or is it a Lant cos they made enough parts differently from ralt to make it a breed on its own
ive not seen 1 close up to check
there is also an ozzie car that looks like RT4 with its bodywork and follows ralt lines
cant think of its name ( cmon Brian its the yellow car) i have fotos somewhere
on the subject of Bowman - can we a credit that to being a ralt?
it may have used ralt uprights wheels etc but what do we call the van diemen f3 car of 93 then? that used ralt uprights & wheels
and on the subject is the ralt RT37 F3 car or or RT23 f3000 car really a ralt
it wasnt built at weybridge and designed by Ron it was March
and before anyone mentions that all ralts are really Brabhams !!

dereklola · 23 Jan 2005, 19:11 (Ref:1208074)

Now back to the story on RT2s - with much help from many of you on 10/10ths I think we've concluded there were six RT2s built by Ralt Cars Ltd -
- 152 built for Toleman in 1979, sold to Mel Lahner in South Africa, crashed, stripped and became basis for the Lants
- 153 also Toleman 1979, sold to Peter Lovely for Gary Gove to drive in 1980 CanAm races, then owned and raced in CanAm by Jim Trueman, then Eddie Wachs, in storage for many years, now in Detroit for historic racing
- 154 Toleman 1979, sold to Genoa Racing and appeared in later CanAm races driven by several drivers including JM Fangio II, now in California for historic racing
- above three all had a unique rear suspension with outboard springs/shocks and a complex multi-tube support frame
- 172 - built in 1980 as a CanAm car for Bill Blackledge, rebodied at least twice during its CanAm years, now owned by me and being renovated for historic races
- 181 - built for Cassani Racing Team in April 1980 for European F2 races being driven be several drivers including Rad Dougal and Manfred Winkelhock: the car later had an extensive career in CanAm format in Interserie races in 1980's [Binder, Hardt etc] and is now for sale in Germany
- 172 and 181 had early RT4 rear suspension with outboard springs/shocks and 'tea-tray' support frame
- 278 built in 1982 for Wyatt Stanley and raced by him and possibly others in UK races, exported to US in 1990's and now active in historic races. This car had the later design of RT4 rear suspension with inboard rear springs/shocks mounted vertically and operated by rocker arms.

All had Hart engines except the Cassani car which ran a BMW.

There may have been other RT2s built from 'spare' tubs but the above are the only ones known to have been built by Ralt.

If anyone wants pics showing the almost total difference in chassis design between RT2s and the Tolemans - let me know.

Derek

dereklola · 23 Jan 2005, 19:18 (Ref:1208080)

Side issue - I got great amusement some years ago from a lunch table expert at work who informed the group that the new Mercedes engine for CART was going to be so much better then the Chevy it replaced. Since it was my boss I didn't have the heart to explain that it was still an Ilmor and only the name on the cam covers [and the source of funds] had changed.

Steve Wilkinson · 23 Jan 2005, 20:41 (Ref:1208137)

Derek, any idea on the possible chassis number for the Martin Chittenden 2.0 Ralt-Hart RT2 run by him in the 1989 British Sprint Championship? He only ran in a couple of rounds in July/August then the car disappeared off the map!

Thanks.

Bryan Miller · 23 Jan 2005, 21:56 (Ref:1208197)

Driftwood,

The yellow car I presume you are trying to think of , is Vivian King's Galloway HG1 BDD Atlantic , one of the various cars built by Harry Galloway , starting with of course a clubman , in this case the Hargal.

Bryan.

driftwood · 23 Jan 2005, 22:08 (Ref:1208209)

thats the car
i must say u took our time in replying did u get up late this morning??!!

driftwood · 24 Jan 2005, 11:26 (Ref:1208482)

any idea on the possible chassis number for the Martin Chittenden 2.0 Ralt-Hart RT2 run by him in the 1989 British Sprint Championship? He only ran in a couple of rounds in July/August then the car disappeared off the map!

this car is i think is the wyatt stanley car (now in usa) it was owned by mr lane sold circa 94 to mr williams raced once Boss silverstone 95 DNF
then sold to usa circa early 96 car was red

Steve Wilkinson · 24 Jan 2005, 14:56 (Ref:1208607)

Driftwood - thanks for the info.

The Roy Lane connection is spot-on as Martin used to spanner for Roy.

dereklola · 24 Jan 2005, 14:58 (Ref:1208609)

Don't know about the hillclimb connection but the later history definitely fits. The car is frequently vintage raced over here - I know it well - in fact I have a small part of it on my workbench right now [borrowed it last July and forget to return it!].

driftwood · 24 Jan 2005, 20:32 (Ref:1208890)

car not hillclimbed -sprinted
( ive given up loaning parts to people for that very reason!! )

dereklola · 25 Jan 2005, 00:38 (Ref:1209104)

Don't be pedantic, Kevin - hillclimbs are just sloping sprints.

Steve Wilkinson · 25 Jan 2005, 11:54 (Ref:1209426)

Hillclimbs - Sprints that go up hill! In some cases only slightly!

Sprints - Speed events mainly on racing circuits or old airfields.

So remember, Hillclimbers may do it up hill BUT Sprinters do it Flat Out!

Dan Rear · 13 Apr 2005, 11:09 (Ref:1277036)

Allen's brilliant site has now done the '81 SE Asia Atlantics. This shows the Williamson Toleman as 'T860-HU5'. Unless there were 4 other T860s built, which I think is very unlikely, we must assume the car was numbered in the same sequence as the F2s, the T850s.

Given that this car raced later than the F2s, can we assume that only 4 T850s were made. Perhaps these were 2 to Docking Spitzley, and 1 each to San Remo and Freddy Scharwiler.

Does this make sense ??

allenbrown · 13 Apr 2005, 12:35 (Ref:1277114)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Allen's brilliant site has now done the '81 SE Asia Atlantics.

All credit to Chris Townsend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

This shows the Williamson Toleman as 'T860-HU5'.

Err, no it doesn't. It shows it as T850-HU5.

Allen

Dan Rear · 13 Apr 2005, 13:27 (Ref:1277170)

Sorry Allen, you're right.

However, still on this car, Bryan M higher up on this thread has the Williamson car as -HU2. Its also described as ex Rothengatter, which I doubt. Any more thoughts anyone ? Also were any other Toleman/Lolas used in FAt anywhere else in the world in period ?

Chris Townsend · 13 Apr 2005, 16:20 (Ref:1277281)

Dan

I think that HU5 might be brain fade on my part [as my numbering of the Williamson car came from Bryan before this thread started...] I'm now scurrying back to my notebooks to check!! However, it was not an F2 chassis, Rothengatter had raced it in Japan.

Chris

driftwood · 13 Apr 2005, 16:31 (Ref:1277290)

fyi the f2 280 toleman car used in japan is sitting in the museum there and i have plate foto as well !!

Bryan Miller · 13 Apr 2005, 23:14 (Ref:1277652)

All,

My identification of the Peter Williamson Toleman from the Australian Grand Prix is taken from Australian Motor Racing Annual 1982/3 where the chassis no. is given as TA860-HU2 ,is also in attendance at the A.G.P. Nov. 1981 and was Toyota powered as opposed to the Cosworth BDD's of everybody else.

Chris, this is in all the photocopies on the way to you via big silver bird.

Bryan.

Dan Rear · 14 Apr 2005, 10:40 (Ref:1277904)

[QUOTE=Chris Townsend]Dan

I think that HU5 might be brain fade on my part [as my numbering of the Williamson car came from Bryan before this thread started...] I'm now scurrying back to my notebooks to check!! However, it was not an F2 chassis, Rothengatter had raced it in Japan.

Chris, do you mean it was an Atlantic tub, ie T860 not T850 ? I'd thought you meant it was an F2 car that Huub had raced in Japanese F2 at the end of 81.

allenbrown · 14 Apr 2005, 16:55 (Ref:1278171)

All fixed. It now reads "Toleman TA860 [HU2]".

Do we know anything about 860 HU1?

Dan Rear · 15 Apr 2005, 11:23 (Ref:1278807)

Allen, other than I doubt it ever existed no !

allenbrown · 4 Apr 2006, 11:54 (Ref:1570027)

Lola records show six T850s and two T860s:

HU850/1 - Japan (Nova Eng)
HU850/2 - Docking Spitzley
HU850/3 - Docking Spitzley
HU850/4 - Japan (Nova Eng)
HU850/5 - San Remo
HU850/6 - Mader/Schnarwiler

HU860/1 - Haas (25 June)
HU860/2 - Peter Williamson (16 Sep)

Hoshino drove for Nova, Stefan Johansson and Kenny Acheson (and others) for Docking Spitzley and Guido Pardini for San Remo. San Remo appears to have kept theirs for another couple of seasons and one of the DS cars also reappears in 1982.

Allen

Dan Rear · 4 Apr 2006, 12:53 (Ref:1570084)

Allen, I think San Remo kept using Tolemans until 1983, Roberto del Castello amongst others. Docking into 82, with Tassin and Rossi, or was he San Remo ?? They mixed and matched the TG280 and T850s, gradually modifying them into 'Toleman DS1s', still Hart powered.

The Haas T860 is interesting, did it ever race over there ?

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