Theodore Champ cars

[kurtiejjj]

A while ago a lot was posted on a mysterious theodore chassis built in the early 80s here . As it turns out this perhaps one of the easiest chassis histories on this forum as all the information's there + pictures of the cars that's why as a noob, I thought to start this thread, here we go:

3 champ car chassis built at least:

1983, T83:

MN019 (Alan Brown any info on that?)

MN020
http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/ot...48475468ss.htm

Raced by Jim Crawford, the 1982 British Formula 1 Champion.

For United Breweries, he ran the 1984 Long Beach Grand Prix; coming in 4th place (Mario Andretti finished 1st)
Passed the 1984 Indy 500 Rookie Test, but did not qualify.
Crawford also used it to compete in the 1984 Meadowlands Grand Prix.

1984, T84:

MN021
Bruno Giacomelli? 3 races

MN022:

Chico Serra


Results:

Results:

Bruno Giacomelli

1 3/31/1984 Long Beach SC CART 44 Theodore Racing Theodore 83 Cosworth grid: 9 finish: 27 laps: 6 Engine

-- 4/14/1984 Phoenix 1 PO CART 44 American Airlines Theodore 83 Cosworth -- -- -- Blew engine practice

-- 5/27/1984 Indianapolis PO USAC/CART 52 Theodore Racing Theodore 84 Cosworth -- -- -- Did not qualify

Tom Sneva

--/ 5/29/1983 Indianapolis PO USAC/CART 5 Texaco Star Theodore 83 Cosworth TC -- -- -- Did not qualify??

Kevin Cogan

24 7/31/1983 Elkhart Lake RC CART 6 Master Mechanic/Caesar's Theodore Cosworth TC 14 19 26 Electrical

Chico Serra

1 6/16/1985 Portland RC CART 15 Ensign Racing Theodore Cosworth 26 25 29 Engine

Jim Crawford

3/31/1984 Long Beach SC CART 78 United Breweries Theodore 83 Cosworth 10 4 111 Flagged 12

-- 5/27/1984 Indianapolis PO USAC/CART 78 United Breweries Theodore Cosworth -- -- -- Did not qualify

5/27/1984 Indianapolis PO USAC/CART 68 Ed Wachs Motor Sports
Theodore Cosworth TC - Did not qualify

2 7/1/1984 Meadowlands SC CART 78 Kansas City Challenge Theodore 83 Cosworth 26 21 30 Broken suspension

Race result information taken from: http://www.champcarstats.com/

So that's it all the history from theodore champ CART cars, how many were built at least 3 as 2 are for sale in england and 1 on race-cars.com however it is likely that there was a fourth car.

[driftwood]

1 car for sale in Uk
1 in essex in a shed
tubs where same as f1 n182 car i believe

[kurtiejjj]

Yep, I know I contacted the guy, even have some pics, interesting price but that engine is going to break me up. So it's still for sale.

Tubs do look incredibly similar but as far as I know the N182 didn't have a carbon top, or did it?

[driftwood]

n182/183 car is carbon

[kurtiejjj]

I was browsing finallap.net and it turns out they have one for sale as well, raced by giacomelli.

So that means that there are 4 cars, and they are all for sale:

1 Crawford car in the US at race-cars.com
1 Giacomelli car in a shed, obviously in essex as you say driftwood
1 another car (Senna) also in the shed dimantled and missing rear suspension
1 Giacomelli car at finallap.net (indianapolis car)

It's coming together quite well now.

[driftwood]

final lap car is car in essex shed so only 3 cars
did senna drive theodore indy car?
Crawford car in the US at race-cars.com chassis number MN020

[funformula]

Originally Posted by driftwood

did senna drive theodore indy car?

No, it was Chico Serra, the ex Fittipaldi and Arrows F1 driver, who drove the Theodore.

[driftwood]

Giacomelli car for sale in Uk not the car in essex
so far only 3 cars known

[kurtiejjj]

Originally Posted by funformula

No, it was Chico Serra, the ex Fittipaldi and Arrows F1 driver, who drove the Theodore.

Yeah, sorry slip of the hand

No driftwood I'm absolutely sure there are 4 cars, although 1 of 4 is in bits. I have pictures to prove it. I will upload them tommorow. Giacomelli car at finallap.net seems to different from the one I know so that's why I say 4 cars built.

[driftwood]

1 car in usa for sale
1 in essex
1 in north of england for sale
i think all 3 cars different livery from the photos ive seen
so where is car no4?

[kurtiejjj]

Well here we go then:

Indianapolis giacomelli car (I take it this is the essex, finallap.net car):



Giacomelli car (north of england, Ulverston to be precise):



Crawford car (in US):



And the party piece, Chico Serra's chassis (also in the north, Ulverston same shed):



And the back wing with #15, which is the number with which chico serra at Portland in 1985, so I assume it is this chassis.


So 4 cars, only thing is to find out which car the other drivers drove.

[driftwood]

2 2 cars in the same shed in uk then
1 complete 1 in pieces

[PeterMorley]

The plain white bodywork behind the chassis is different to that on the other cars, since it looks to be in rather good condition it might not be connected to the chassis anyway (tail looks like a March)?
The rear wing could also be from a different car?

Sorting an engine out could be one of the cheapest parts of that project - rebuilt DFX around for upto $25k, or a kit with slight damage sold on Ebay for just over $2.5k recently. The bodywork will cost you more than that, let alone suspension, gearbox etc.

Given how cheap the complete car is the sensible thing would be to buy the whole lot and either treat the chassis as a spare, or use the other car to provide patterns so that you could build up two cars.

If the Essex car was sold for anything like their asking price (might help if they had a decent photo) it could even be a profitable project - but it hasn't sold, and you can buy restored race winning 80s indycars for under $100k running.

[driftwood]

Only the usa guys run old Indycars you can get cars for under $60k running
noweher over here to run tehcars except Euroboss and for teh money i would rather run F3000 car

[PeterMorley]

I quite fancy the idea of a 70s indycar with 950 BHp for $75k if only you could get it to turn right as well as left!

[allenbrown]

A lot of these cars ran at Brands and Silverstone October 1978 so it could be done. A 1972-type Eagle-Offy or a Parnelli VPJ6-DFX or a 1977 Coyote-Ford would be a nice bit of kit for the Derek Bell Trophy!

[driftwood]

indy cars can turn left and right they made oval road race ( circuit to us) and street race spec wishbones
later Indy car teams had 3 cars for each event !!

[kurtiejjj]

Hi Peter already found something to buy?

Regarding the non-roller chassis, maybe it isn't the same as the roller one however it would make sense as the back wing seems to be the same as on the roller and it has #15 which consequently was the number with which chico serra drove. However the seller said that he contacted some expert who said it could have been an f1 chassis , obviously I don't believe this as I've never seen an 80s F1 car with aluminium bottom and carbon top. Or what do you all think?

[allenbrown]

Not a F1 chassis. I know where they all went and there are no 'barn discoveries' still to come.

[driftwood]

F1 and indycar tubs will be the same except the fuel cell area possibly being larger for indycar

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by kurtiejjj

Hi Peter already found something to buy?

Regarding the non-roller chassis, maybe it isn't the same as the roller one however it would make sense as the back wing seems to be the same as on the roller and it has #15 which consequently was the number with which chico serra drove. However the seller said that he contacted some expert who said it could have been an f1 chassis , obviously I don't believe this as I've never seen an 80s F1 car with aluminium bottom and carbon top. Or what do you all think?

Hi Kurt, I've found a couple of tempting cars (just need to remember to buy my winning lottery ticket first!) - a turbo Offy car would be an interesting partner to my small Offy (97/110 ci) sports car!

IIRC the bare chassis is number 1? That could mean it was a prototype and for some reason was never used, or was replaced early on?
Maybe the same with the bodywork, it could be a design they didn't use (or simply from something else!). If you were tempted by this project bear in mind that even if you had bodywork to copy the cost of doing so is similar to buying an engine!

One of the 1982 Theodore N182 F1 cars is for sale in the UK, maybe you could get some photos of that car to compare. I think the chassis is a very similar design but all carbon.

Peter

[driftwood]

F1 car does look different i have the fotos looked at them after the comment was made about alloy carbon tub
Indy car V f3000 car
no contest F300 wins hands down
kighter more nimble better down force parts easy to get and u can add bigger engine if u need more power
show me anyone who has had success over F1 cars with Indy car in eec?
ONLY GUY I CAN THINK OF WAS THE 91 PENSKES IN iNTERSERIE Fritz Glatz and he was a semi pro driver

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by driftwood

F1 car does look different i have the fotos looked at them after the comment was made about alloy carbon tub
Indy car V f3000 car
no contest F300 wins hands down
kighter more nimble better down force parts easy to get and u can add bigger engine if u need more power
show me anyone who has had success over F1 cars with Indy car in eec?
ONLY GUY I CAN THINK OF WAS THE 91 PENSKES IN iNTERSERIE Fritz Glatz and he was a semi pro driver

Problem with driving competitive cars is you look a right berk if you aren't competitive, if you drive something odd you can always blame the car for your cr@p performance!!

The 1991 Penske that Al Unser Jr drove at Goodwood in 2005 is for sale @$125k, but it only has an 800 Bhp Ilmor engine!!

[driftwood]

rather look a plonker in a pedigree car than drive a mule
can always sell pedigree
mules get given away

[kurtiejjj]

Originally Posted by driftwood

rather look a plonker in a pedigree car than drive a mule
can always sell pedigree
mules get given away

So that's apparently why all the theodore champ cars built are all for sale

@peter: By the way peter I think you don't need that lottery ticket when you have sold that connaught. To get even more off-topic why don't you race the connaught? Must be be quite a dream come true to drive, or well at least for me it would.