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Old 20 Apr 2012, 19:57 (Ref:3062795)   #76
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andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Whilst F Ford Zetec may or may not have ever been truly healthy the engine was bomb proof and did not need re-building every 5 mins to extract the last 1 or 2 bhp (unlike the much loved 1600 kent) and as a result represented potentially good VfM. Unfortunately it was a bit top heavy and there was a mistake in going to slicks IMHO. F Ford Duratec had the potential to be a similarly robust engine but Ford wouldn't back it once they wanted the ecoboost thingy.

What, perhaps, we need now is a new "F Junior" with simple chassis and a choice of available engines benchmarked around a "standard" Duratec and an H pattern' box
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Old 20 Apr 2012, 23:57 (Ref:3062878)   #77
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See the thing I don't get is why they just can't have a very simple formula, just like FF1600 used to be, with a low cost of entry to boost competition. A lot of people out there might not have a lot of money, but at least there is a chance in that scenario to identify some possible stars people might find worth backing.
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Old 21 Apr 2012, 04:12 (Ref:3062919)   #78
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I don't understand why a bike engine wouldn't be popular in that scenario, too. They're inexpensive, they sound good, they'll give good power as well.
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Old 21 Apr 2012, 07:27 (Ref:3062964)   #79
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For the record, this weekend Intersteps will have a 20% increase in grid numbers to 12 cars, including a member of the Caterham young driver scheme, drivers from Italy, Finland, South Africa, Switzerland, Russia & Mexico, wo is backed by Telmex.

It does suggest that what the series is offering is actually both useful & attractive to many drivers and their backers.
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Old 21 Apr 2012, 07:36 (Ref:3062970)   #80
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For the record, this weekend Intersteps will have a 20% increase in grid numbers to 12 cars, including a member of the Caterham young driver scheme, drivers from Italy, Finland, South Africa, Switzerland, Russia & Mexico, wo is backed by Telmex.

It does suggest that what the series is offering is actually both useful & attractive to many drivers and their backers.
To be truly worthy these days, this sort of series surely must have drivers and backers from the areas like the Middle East, India and China involved.
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Old 21 Apr 2012, 08:41 (Ref:3063007)   #81
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For the record, this weekend Intersteps will have a 20% increase in grid numbers to 12 cars, including a member of the Caterham young driver scheme, drivers from Italy, Finland, South Africa, Switzerland, Russia & Mexico, wo is backed by Telmex.

It does suggest that what the series is offering is actually both useful & attractive to many drivers and their backers.
I don't see how 2 extra cars actually suggests anything of the sort. Since Intersteps has never managed to achieve the entry levels which are usually required to justify Championship status, it seems to fall well below the accepted benchmark for being attractive to drivers, although it does seem to enjoy support from others.

I notice on the RSF website it says "The British Automobile Racing Club-run InterSteps Championship - the junior formula that provides a bridge between karting and slicks and wings single-seater racing - also receives substantial RSF financial support."

Can anyone explain exactly what this means?

On the Intersteps page of the BARC website it says "Those involved with the Championship consider that education is a key part of driver development and through the involvement of the MSA Academy and the Racing Steps Foundation aim to offer competitors lecturing and mentoring opportunities in what it will take to become a champion in the sport."

I may be wrong but I think RSF has supported individual drivers in the Intersteps Championship - does it also directly fund the Championship itself?
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Old 21 Apr 2012, 09:45 (Ref:3063041)   #82
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On the Intersteps page of the BARC website it says "Those involved with the Championship consider that education is a key part of driver development and through the involvement of the MSA Academy and the Racing Steps Foundation aim to offer competitors lecturing and mentoring opportunities in what it will take to become a champion in the sport."
What absolute twaddle

What kids of 14 - 16 need is to go to school for an education, race at weekends by all means and then, if they want, get a degree or experience in something useful that will provide them with a living once their parent's aspirations of a retirement pad in Monaco have inevitably fallen down the drain.

The MSA and BARC should butt out of "education". They obviously don't know the meaning of the word.
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Old 21 Apr 2012, 10:08 (Ref:3063048)   #83
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And another thing while I'm in the mood

Formula Vee next weekend at Brands has an entry of 32 cars, a full grid plus 4 reserves, 3 or whom are potential race winners but obviously have not submitted their entry in time....

OK, I accept that many people will trot out the usual stuff about Vee being "agricultural" and all the rest but if you want to learn a circuit at a reasonable speed (51sec ish) at Brands there is no better way imho.

And as for learning wheel to wheel racing only FF1600 is a competitor, and only slightly faster. A top Vee is already faster than any Classic or pre 90FF's out there.

It's all about value, which the current higher levels of single seater racing simply don't offer, with one notable exception.
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Old 21 Apr 2012, 10:44 (Ref:3063065)   #84
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I hate to shoot you down in flames because you have made some very valid points & I do agree in spirit with your point of view but when was FF Zetec ever healthy?
2001. Almost 30 cars in the National Championship and pushing 40 in the Avon Junior Series.
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Old 21 Apr 2012, 11:06 (Ref:3063078)   #85
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2001. Almost 30 cars in the National Championship and pushing 40 in the Avon Junior Series.
But how many did they have by 2005 with the Avon Junior Championship dead and struggling to make it into the teens in the single national championship?

Don't get me wrong I'm not anti-Zetec, more anti the way Ford handled the transition and they don't seem to have learned any lessons from their own history with the ECOboost debacle.

FF is a great concept and it hurts to see it in its present state. Thank God for JB & the WHT.
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Old 21 Apr 2012, 12:30 (Ref:3063118)   #86
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The Zetec engine was a heavy lump that made the cars handle badly, but you asked when it was healthy, so I answered.
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Old 21 Apr 2012, 12:34 (Ref:3063122)   #87
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The BARC blame the costs of F1 for driving everything up in price. I see it as the other way around. When some parents are spending six figures on little Johnny's go-karting season, huge unecessary motorhomes, dataloggers, new tyres every five minutes and everything else, something is seriously wrong. The karters then move up into 'bigger & better' cars, naturally expecting it to be more professional, the teams oblige and costs spiral..the higher the move up the ladder the more expensive it gets. Similarly FF chose to go to slicks, to satisfy the karters that move up. In the 70s very few FF drivers did karts first...a trip to Jim Russell or Brands racing school was enough to get them started. Karting and the roots is where the expensive over the top professionalisation has come from.
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Old 21 Apr 2012, 13:05 (Ref:3063133)   #88
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The BARC blame the costs of F1 for driving everything up in price. I see it as the other way around. When some parents are spending six figures on little Johnny's go-karting season, huge unecessary motorhomes, dataloggers, new tyres every five minutes and everything else, something is seriously wrong. The karters then move up into 'bigger & better' cars, naturally expecting it to be more professional, the teams oblige and costs spiral..the higher the move up the ladder the more expensive it gets. Similarly FF chose to go to slicks, to satisfy the karters that move up. In the 70s very few FF drivers did karts first...a trip to Jim Russell or Brands racing school was enough to get them started. Karting and the roots is where the expensive over the top professionalisation has come from.
You have hit on something there but I still think it is the F1 effect that trickled down which has made karting more professional.

F1 has advanced considerably in the last 30 years from the "garagista" era that the likes of Ken Tyrell were were still hanging onto as recently as the late 80's.

We beagan karting in the late 90's and there were a couple of big teams such as O'Neil & Zip Young Guns with a presence the paddock but there was still a high percentage of dad & lad operations with a van or even estate car & an easy up even at Super One level.

Now you go the average clubbie kart meeting and the big teams are very much in evidence even there and cater for most of the drivers. I suppose its just reflective of the eveolution of the sport throughout and very little grass roots racing is actually a grass operation anymore.

But this situation isn't just unique to motorsport, sport in general is just far more professional and business like these days (not something I personally necassarily welcome)
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Old 21 Apr 2012, 14:19 (Ref:3063155)   #89
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Well thank god I was born when I was...from a spectator point of view. Big FF fields, 200+ cars in the Festival which really was an important event back then, just another clubbie today. I recall an F3 support race at the Silverstone F1/F5000 International Trophy with 75 entries, 2 heats and a final. The BTCC was where it should be, a support event to big proper racing cars, but with none of the talentless banger antics they use today. Of course we can't change it, we are where we are...it'll never come back, but I feel for the young racing fans, and drivers..they'll never know or experience how great it was week in week out, often with GP drivers in lesser events. It was simple..FF, FF2000, F3, F2, F1...with perhaps F.Atlantic & F5000 as a sideline. Progress and professionalism driving costs sky high is not always a good thing...but the modern safety aspect definitely is.

But there has to be a way to create a simple ladder to get more cars out there, as at the moment all of the drivers & budgets are diluted over too many 'vested interest' championships.
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Old 22 Apr 2012, 13:41 (Ref:3063630)   #90
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We beagan karting in the late 90's and there were a couple of big teams such as O'Neil & Zip Young Guns with a presence the paddock but there was still a high percentage of dad & lad operations with a van or even estate car & an easy up even at Super One level.

Now you go the average clubbie kart meeting and the big teams are very much in evidence even there and cater for most of the drivers. I suppose its just reflective of the eveolution of the sport throughout and very little grass roots racing is actually a grass operation anymore.
In terms of where this problem stemmed from, you're 100% right. Two things have 'evolved' here :

o Almost every single seater driver these days has started in karting. As Andrew said, in the 1970s and before, karting was a sport in itself and many/most single seater drivers began in FF1600 following an introduction at a school.

o To be competitive at club level in karting these days, you need to be with a professional team. They have the data and the wherewithal to get you on the pace right away. The dad and lad approach has been forsaken by most serious karters now, and it's only fools like me that seem to arrive in the paddock on race morning with a car and trailer... dwarfed by transporters, large awnings and big motorhomes etc...

Being part of a professional set-up, with mechanics and race engineers, becomes par for the course for these drivers from the moment they start... and as a consequence they all have clean fingernails and expect a similar, no, I should say, better experience as they scale the ladder.

Unfortunately, the genie's out of the bottle with that one.
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Old 22 Apr 2012, 21:35 (Ref:3063891)   #91
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Personally other than doing some karting for fun with other drivers I know, I've never run in karts, never been into karts and probably never will be. So I'm no expert on it.

But what I have seen with karting is similar to what other people have mentioned. I'll never forget seeing at one national meeting I happened to be at(for other reasons), Nascar sized car haulers turning up and disgorging one little tiny kart with 4-6 mechanics fawning over it.

To me that approach is like using a B-52 to open a can of Coca Cola. Karting today is very far removed from what it once was.

It's too much and it's way over the top and to me compared to the good ole days, the "fun" element is totally missing from junior formula categories, even from 10 years ago. And by fun, I don't mean extra curricular activities at or away from the track, I mean the racing itself today is both boring, plain, soulless, emotionless. Too much over reliance on one make cars and control parts. Dull.

It's almost like people are spending enormous sums of money going through the motions to be a robotic racing driver, almost all of whom never even touch F1. I just don't see the passion or interest from drivers like I used to. And it's probably why up until a few years ago, I knew just about every formula series in the world and about all the drivers and now I could care less for the most part.

And I'll tell you another thing I see is all this obsession with data logging and engineers and that blah blah you've got to have it in all these junior formula cars cause that's what they've got in F1. #1, most race engineers I have met don't know a damn thing about driving and all that data is two dimensional because you have to have the context of the whole situation from the person that actually sits in the car. I see a huge over reliance on it and drivers are not developing their own instincts and race craft and the ability to communicate and provide feedback.
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Old 23 Apr 2012, 09:02 (Ref:3064091)   #92
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And I'll tell you another thing I see is all this obsession with data logging and engineers and that blah blah you've got to have it in all these junior formula cars cause that's what they've got in F1. #1, most race engineers I have met don't know a damn thing about driving and all that data is two dimensional because you have to have the context of the whole situation from the person that actually sits in the car. I see a huge over reliance on it and drivers are not developing their own instincts and race craft and the ability to communicate and provide feedback.
I know exactly where you are coming from, I had never used data logging when I was driving, I thought the invention of the electronic tacho was pretty advanced....

Once I started getting into it again with my son, club racing, I was quickly converted to the benefits though. It's like anything else, if you know how to use it and interpret it you can have an edge on car setup and it will give you pointers as to driving technique, where you are fast, where you are slow.

Where it gets really interesting is when you load the data into a home simulator and try things out before even getting to the track.

I take your point though, I think sometimes that there are an awful lot of people staring at screens in the paddock who might not have read the manual, but overall I thinks it's a plus and hasn't raised costs much. The need to have all those engineers may have, but that's a different point.
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Old 23 Apr 2012, 22:12 (Ref:3064543)   #93
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To get back to the question posed in this thread the maybe the answer is no. Not for well planned, organised and promoted series that offer a great deal while controlling budget anyway.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=130784&page=8

http://www.f3open.net/index.php

Maybe for mega-bucks series it is harder and series that offer cheap budgets but deliver little whan all is said and done find it the hardest.
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Old 25 Apr 2012, 11:57 (Ref:3065338)   #94
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And I'll tell you another thing I see is all this obsession with data logging and engineers and that blah blah you've got to have it in all these junior formula cars cause that's what they've got in F1. #1, most race engineers I have met don't know a damn thing about driving and all that data is two dimensional because you have to have the context of the whole situation from the person that actually sits in the car. I see a huge over reliance on it and drivers are not developing their own instincts and race craft and the ability to communicate and provide feedback.
i agree with that - it's something i've heard from a driver who has worked with teams who should know better too. he mentioned that the data engineer is sometimes unwilling to listen to when something doesn't work but that his spreadsheet says will. there's a disconnect between reality and theory. the important thing is not that the physics and maths say it will work, but that the driver feels better able to drive the car quicker. you need engineers with, like mountainstar says, enough experience of actually dealing with cars and understanding them to know where a driver is coming from, and the understanding to be able to interpret the information in front of you. i think it's to do with the over-formalisation of qualifications as much as anything - how is it possible for people to get engineer jobs within top teams without having touched an actual racing car aside from posing with one as a fanboy and building a formula student car?

the data itself isn't a problem then, the issue is with how it's being used.
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Old 25 Apr 2012, 13:39 (Ref:3065396)   #95
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Hhhmmm... I'm not so sure about that. I think we're overdoing this a little. From my own experience, I've found 'data' and 'data analysis' to be a very helpful aid in improving lap times. I've used the AIM Mychron 4 suite, including Race Studio 2, in karting [without a data engineer]. It's very easy to use. Everything's pretty self explanatory. You can see what you're doing wrong with far greater precision than on feel alone and get ideas on how to correct it. Now I appreciate that the level of set-up and adjustment of the car in the case of a slicks and wings single seater [such as F3] would require a far greater level of expertise - hence the need for an engineer - but as far as dismissing the use of data in relation to improving one's driving... I'm not sure that's the right direction.

If you take a look at this video, you'll see the kind of information you can get from a data trace and get some ideas on how it could be used to improve what you do over a lap.

Video here.
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Old 25 Apr 2012, 22:48 (Ref:3065620)   #96
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I visit this forum each day, but only very rarely is something posted that I feel strongly enough to comment on, so thankyou Bella for raising the question to something so close to my heart.
Like many others who have posted before me, I firmly believe that too many championships lead the career drivers confused and bewildered as to which path to follow. Even with the required budget, guessing which is the best championship to choose to further that career is nigh on impossible in this day and age.
Even as a small child the ladder was easy to recognise and follow.
Start in Formula Ford, make the jump to Formula Three or maybe Atlantics (oh how I miss that championship), go on to Formula Two, if you get stuck stop off in Formula 5000, and then if you are lucky enough Formula One.
Grids were always full, as there were simply no other choices.
Manafacturer involvement was the main reason this changed over the years, creating series to promote their various brands. Organisers and governing bodies jumped at the chances, keen to promote more races at more circuits.
The downside of course is that grids became diluted. F3 was no longer a championship only held in your own country, and the European F2 championship disappeared altogether.
I know it's an impossibilty now, but if we went back to those core championships of the past, budgets, drivers, and teams would all be channelled into certain areas, creating full grids, even heats to decide who would go onto the final. Just think, the Formula Ford Festival of old, but in every championship at every round!
Avid motorsport fans that they were, my parents took me to my first meeting at a month old, and at 45 now I have regularly attended both national and international meetings ever since. But I find it impossible to keep track of the various European single seater championships now, let alone those throughout the world. For too many years to remember, the motorsport community has tried to make Joe Public aware that F1 isn't the only single seater championship in the world, but with the leisure pound harder fought for than ever, trying to persuade someone to go to a predominately single seater meeting is nigh on impossible. I find it grossly unfair that the promoters couldn't care less about how many spectators come through the gate, and rely solely on entry fees to run a meeting. Corporate and track days are only things of fairly recent years, and that revenue has made those promoters care even less as to how many people actually want to come and watch their meetings.
The technical debate isn't really an issue, we will never stop teams and drivers trying to seek an advantage, whether it be through engines, tyres, telemetry etc. This will happen whether there be 3 championships or 330.
Single seater racing isn't in crisis, it just lacks direction, lacks clarity as to which path to choose, whether it be the F1 wannabe, or the casual fun racer.
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Old 25 Apr 2012, 23:36 (Ref:3065636)   #97
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I was reading an interview with Mark Blundell today in Motorsport magazine and he was talking about in his 1st year in Formula Ford he ran 70 races and won 25. There was a whole plethora of places to race a FF1600 and now that is all gone.

Instead there is this wide variance of one make championships. It's dull, boring and a lot of the drivers don't even really compete against one another because of it.

Over here in the USA, they started up a National FF1600 championship and it has taken off with success and you can run a kent motor or the new Honda Fit motor. The Honda requires minimal maintenance and can go 5 seasons without a rebuild. The series runs at very technical and historical tracks like Watkins Glen, Mid Ohio, VIR and Lime Rock. You can run a car on your own or have a professional shop do everything for you for around $50K-$70K a season. There is even a little bit of prize money on offer.

I think we need to get back to that level of realism without the farkles and have a focus on competitive racing, not building a rocket to go to Mars.
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Old 27 Apr 2012, 11:08 (Ref:3066106)   #98
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Back to Basics

I believe there may be two reasons why junior single seater series are so expensive:
a) cars tend to be unnecessarily complex and so spares are expensive
b) most rely on 'teams' to run the cars (who have many mouths to feed)
This is not what most young drivers need, or can afford.

Talk about going back to FF days or perhaps looking at M/C engines?

Well, Ralph Firman and David Baldwin recently came out of retirement to build a space frame chassis that works extremely well.

We fit it with a lightweight, high revving and CHEAP Suzuki GSXR 1000cc engine and restrict it to 150bhp. Chain drive. F3 rubber.

The young driver learns to drive a car with three pedals and a gear lever - no frills. We run all the cars with one team in identical setup - so no excuses or moaning and more importantly, 'wallet based achievement'. The best driver on the day wins.

Its cheap and extremely effective.

We use a top driver coach (Andy Pardoe) to work with all the drivers (looking at output from an AIM logger and a Go-Pro camera in each car). The drivers develop very quickly - as all the 'bull' stops.

The result? Our first 'suck it and see season' with 14 x 20 minute races, including tires for 34,000 pounds all in. As an organizer I can tell you this is about our cost.

Of course we are entitled to make a margin so next season we will charge more but still less than 47,000 pounds. If the winter gets too cold, jump on a flight to Dubai and join us! Its called Formula Gulf 1000.
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Old 27 Apr 2012, 13:25 (Ref:3066146)   #99
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@GulfSport, the car concept of Formula Gulf is fine, but the problem is that its yet one more spec. formula among the myriads that are already out there. I mean, how many different spec. formulae do we need ?

In my mind there are two fundamental issues with single seater racing globally.

o Cost -and we've explored some of the reasons behind that.

o Too many incompatible formulae at the same level.

The only way I can envisage a solution to this is from the top - by the FIA. However, having seen their attempt at this in kart racing, I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Old 27 Apr 2012, 16:01 (Ref:3066222)   #100
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GulfSport should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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You may have too many spec Formula series and I sympathize with the issue of dilution - but here, we don't. Formula Gulf 1000 is the only one in the region.
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