"stand down" on post - what does it mean?

[Bodysnatcher]

Looking forward to the season ahead, I looked up a timetable for the first meeting down at Brands Hatch

http://www.lotrdc.com/Lotus_Brands_Hatch_Celebration

and my heart sank a little...

Lunch & Lotus Demos - 13:17pm
T Cars Race - 14:05pm

If lunch starts on time and even getting back only 10mins before the first race after lunch, thats 38 minutes.
30 minutes for a lunch break I can handle.
demos at lunch time......another thing altogether

Great for the spectators, but as happened a few times last year, not so good for marshals if we have the infamous "stand down on post" order.

What are the implications of "stand down on post"?

Are we providing safety cover?
I guess we are, since who would stand idly by if a demo car required assistance?

Is the Observer still responsible?
Or can I relax?, maybe leave the post in order to answer the call of nature

What is a safe manning level?
given that we may be starting with a number only marginally greater than one.

The reply I got to these sort of questions was "I leave it to you with your years of experience to decide how best to deal with it"

buck passing at it's finest
(or joined up thinking to invoke one of the buzz-words favoured)

Well, given my years of experience and if (for example) the driver was an ex F1 and Indy car champion driving in a supposedly non-competitive manner with the circuit to himself.

I'd say we can all leave the post and go for a burger and chips.

But i know that's not what I'm meant to say and I know whose arse would be the first to get a kicking if it went tits-up.

What does the board think?

Personally I'd rather not hear this phrase.
I'm on duty or off
thats it

I know Dutchchap had a big problem with this approach to lunch break activities.

[Stephen Green]

My understanding of the term is that we are not providing cover during that period. I believe it is done so that there are no marshals crossing the track while demonstrations etc are in progress and also to make sure marshals are back at their posts in plenty of time before racing begins.

I have always taken it to mean that you can nip to the toilet, or if you feel adventurous go and buy a burger.

I'm guessing they are trying to make the meeting run as smoothly as possible and trying to eliminate any human snags?

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

My understanding of the term is that we are not providing cover during that period. .........

I'm guessing they are trying to make the meeting run as smoothly as possible and trying to eliminate any human snags?

You the only one brave enough to try a reply after 50 views of this subject Stephen? Good on you.

If as you think, we're not providing cover for demos, why are the words "on post" tacked on?

To make things run as smoothly as possible, I would prefer unambiguous wording. Even better, just tell me that I can go for lunch and leave any required intervention to the rescue crew.
Who might be on better conditions of service than me.
Or might not, who knows?

[Aardvaark]

It's the "on post" bit that's the catch isn't it? If it means "go ahead and leave the post if you feel like it for any reason", then why are the words there? Because it appears to mean "stay on post" - which kind of eliminates any movement off post! So why can't they be honest and say what they really mean - "if anything happens please deal with it, we are relying on you, and no, you're not getting a break". So meetings like that I politely decline - it's my option as a volunteer.

[SouthportFC Fan]

If you're stood down on post, but you respond to a 'display' incident and you are, heaven forbid, injured, are you covered by MSA insurance ?

My interpretation of 'standing down on post' is that, if you need to leave it, then ask the observer first, if they've not left already !! If it's OK by them, then it's OK to leave the post.

[The Fat Clerk]

On the days when I'm Observing (not many I know), I'm happy to let my team go, along as this doesn't involve them crossing the track.

[Novice]

At other times when say a car is doing 3 laps because they missed practice we are told to be aware that there is track activity, we are not told to stand down on post. This brings a sinister meaning to the stand down on post comment as we are being told that we cannot leave post, even though half the crowd have gone down to the pitlane walkabout by crossing the track before Ex f1 and Indy Car champ does his bit.

[Peter Harding]

My understanding of the "on post" bit is that race control can phone and everyone can be immediately on duty. It helps if it's accompanied with a bit of info like "we don't expect to start for at least nn minutes as this allows a loo break but...
IT'S NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR A LUNCH BREAK.
If we are expected to forgo the lunch break it should be handled very carefully by race control to ensure we get a reasonable deal.

i e . got enough marshals to rotate off duty periods/In bad weather it might be better to end earlier/...

[rbs]

I thought it was FIA speak for not letting us into the Paddock or Pit Lane.

[cowchap]

Not sure what or means but it was very annoying to be 'stood down on post' during the DTM taxi rides last year,had to leave a blissful half hour in the shade to roast for 45 minutes in the full glare of the sun-seemed a bit silly-great meeting though,gutted I cant do it this year especially as the sidecars are there too!

[PVDA]

What is this LUNCH BREAK thing you speak of

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by PVDA

What is this LUNCH BREAK thing you speak of

See my sig.

PJ

[racerkeke]

If that's the case, PapaJuliet, you'll love Vegas!

Time-certain schedule, at least an hour for catered lunch each day...

keke

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by racerkeke

If that's the case, PapaJuliet, you'll love Vegas!

Time-certain schedule, at least an hour for catered lunch each day...

Yum yum, can't wait.



PJ

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by PapaJuliet

Yum yum, can't wait.



PJ

enjoy it - it could be the only 'time certain' and 'catered' lunch you'll see most of the season

[PapaJuliet]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

enjoy it - it could be the only 'time certain' and 'catered' lunch you'll see most of the season

You're so cruel. I'll just pinch your lunch instead

[Dutch chap]

OK, back on topic, at least back to the situations Bodysnatcher wanted to discuss, as far as I understand.

He mentioned my name in his original post (thanks Al ) and after some hesitation I decided to respond, not because I like to, but to make (senior) marshals more aware of what can happen.

Here we go: In 1998 (or was it 1999?) we had the Williams F1 team doing some demo laps at Zandvoort during a meeting. I was chief marshal at the time (although not acting in this position during this meeting, but who cares. This is about what can happen and should be avoided, not about who did it.). The marshals were “stood down on post” during the demo. Ralf Schumacher’s car caught fire, nobody was ready to react as they should have (….) and we had worldwide shown on TV a marshal with his overalls rolled down to the waist, carrying an icecream in one hand and a fire bottle in the other. OK, he cleared the fire but this is not how we want to be seen on TV.

So we (….) were wrong. It shouldn’t have happened. It had consequences, but even that is not important. The issue is, and I think this is what Bodysnatcher was referring to, is that the “standing down on post” is more than a bit vague. What is expected from marshals if this call is made. Leave the post? Be fully prepared to act? Something in between?

[racerkeke]

Very good point. We had something similar happen when we were stood down on post during a lunch break at a superspeedway some years ago. One of the "give rides to the sponsors" cars hit the wall a ton in T2. Luckily most stations had a headset on waiting to hear when the lunch trucks would be coming around, so when we heard the yellow call we could hang the yellow flags (in absence of the yellow lights -- race control having also stood down). Got all the other show cars slowed right down and managed to get someone on a pit radio to call the safety crew.

Since then the rule is, someone on the headset at all times. Doesn't have to be the designated communicator, but someone who's paying attention. On street courses we also must have someone near a yellow flag if cars etc. are circulating. What we do is trade these items off between members of the crew so everyone can get a "green room" break and some time to eat lunch in peace.

keke

[Eddy V]

To me personally "stand down on post" means that you are free. Free to have a drink, a rest, use the facilities and come back. No need to react to something on track as you have been made to stand down by Race Control.

But out of experience I know that if something goes wrong on your post during stand down period, YOU will be held responsible by Race Control, the team, the car owner, the family, whatever.

It is an easy way for them to wash their hands in innocence: the marshals were there, why didn't they react (properly)? We told them to stay on post.

I've had it happen a few times, stood down on post (something they do all the time at Spa) and then something goes wrong.

After I pulled a nearly dead guy from his show car many years ago (I had to ditch my food first and get out of my lazy chair) and got more than an ear full, I stay on post and pay attention. Whatever happens. Even how sad it is. Never mind how much I hate it.

Better be safe than sorry, they have a lot more money than me if it goes further.

[Bodysnatcher]

Thanks Dutch chap,
that sort of thing happening is what I was trying to make people think about. Then after such an incident, explanations are expected and people held responsible.

Like you, so many years after what happened at Zandvoort, there is no point in blaming somebody for what did or did not happen. It's history, but we should all learn from it.

Just be aware folks, that what a marshal on the bank thinks "stand down on post" means
and what race control thinks "stand down on post" means can be 2 completely different things.

If I'm acting as an observer, I find I cannot relax if I'm told that the "stand down on post" will have track activities occuring. But I'd like to allow my team to get a break.

As I previewed this I see EddyV has added something that sounds even more scary, thanks for sharing Eddy.

[Bodysnatcher]

I see a Canadian, a Belgian and a Dutchman have all had bad things happen at lunchtime.
Have we all just been lucky so far in the UK?

Brands and the infamous wheelie truck comes to mind, but it was the year before I started, so I don't know exactly what happened.

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

If I'm acting as an observer, I find I cannot relax if I'm told that the "stand down on post" will have track activities occuring. But I'd like to allow my team to get a break.

That is why I always stay on post Al during a stand down, only after some of the others have come back I will make use of the facilities (or whatever).

[Bryan Degerlund]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

I see a Canadian, a Belgian and a Dutchman have all had bad things happen at lunchtime.
Have we all just been lucky so far in the UK?

Brands and the infamous wheelie truck comes to mind, but it was the year before I started, so I don't know exactly what happened.

During the Brands Hatch Truck GP there was a major incident involving three trucks between posts 8 and 9 (Bottom Straight). One of the trucks had a length of Armco actually piercing through the cab, luckily the driver was uninjured. Everything had been scrambled to the scene, and as there would be a long delay, it was decided tyo keep the crowd happy with Steve Murty's "wheelie" truck. This truck was specially designed to run wheelies, ie with the front wheels 6-8 feet in the air. As Steve passed the start gantry, approaching Paddock Bend on one of his runs, he dropped out of the wheelie, but then rolled onto his roof,just before post 2.

I immediately called for Rescue, etc. on the radio, but as they were all busy at the other incident, it took a while for any reaction. There were a number of worrying things about the crash, inckuding the two gas bottles which were used to create flames through the exhaust. However, this was a number of years back, and I believe lessons were learnt.

[archaic gold]

I am sure that you regular Brands guys and girls will remember (it was only two years ago!!); I think at the CSMA Classis Meeting when two Classic Lotus F1s had a togetherness at the Ambulance Gate (Pots 2&3), when the one on the right turned into the open gateway, and the one on the left continued down Paddock Hill. Neither got very far, and this was during the official lunch-break. Needless to say there were many of us still about to assist!!!

[flagwaver]

As a rescue bod I have big problems with "stand downs" because they usually expect the rescue unit(s) be available to attend any incidents. When we are expected to go to the toilet etc I do not know.