[Rules] Formula 1 to clampdown team radio?

[jmlima]

Originally Posted by JacobP

I...Then we could potentially see the weird outcomes where a top driver pits at a wrong time or doesn't push as hard as he should, sometimes resulting in an underdog stepping on podium or even winning a race.

And what a tragedy that would be...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Lets see how it works in action but to me that reads like it's still possible to ask what the time difference is between one car and another and from that a smart driver should be able to work out where they are losing or gaining time.

If I'm reading that right then I'm fine with it.

Still not sure why anyone has a problem with an athlete being coached though.

It'll be interesting to see how they go about issuing team orders !

F1 being F1, it won't be long before they come up with encrypted code to replace the explicit communication.

"Nico, do you want fries with your Big Mac after the race" = "Mode 3, Strategy 2, Pit in 2 laps time"

"Lewis is asking for Diet Coke" = "Lewis is taking medium tyres this time and will be running a long stint"

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by davyboy

"Nico, do you want fries with your Big Mac after the race" = "Mode 3, Strategy 2, Pit in 2 laps time"

"Lewis is asking for Diet Coke" = "Lewis is taking medium tyres this time and will be running a long stint"

and im fine with that. probably to do with the sports i grew up with, football, baseball, bball, hockey...all of which involve plays and tactics (in code and with goofy names of course) being shouted out or signed from the sidelines by coaching staff.

[VIVA GT]

Will this lead to multi-functional LED pit boards? (Or something equally complicated).
Usually, when something is restricted in F1 the top teams generally come up with a more complicated/more expensive alternative...

[Greem]

Next rule: limits on the overall height and width of the pit board. Exactly how tall must one be to say "Felipe, Fernando is faster than you?" or something similar?

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Maybe if there were no generation overlaps when it came to sports fans, and the new generation were totally separated from the old generation of fans, then Formula 1 would still be very popular.

Why? It's actually fairly simple.

Formula 1 was largely a rich mans hobby. There wasn't a huge amount of media hype, mainly because the media didn't really exist, and those that did didn't have any major interests. Then it all changed in 1976 when the epic title battle between Niki Lauda and James Hunt reached a conclusion. Due to the tension in this fight, and the increase in live international sports coverage, many international media companies cashed in on this. Suddenly Formula 1 became mainstream, and, seeing as this coincided with the rise of Mr Ecclestone to become Formula 1's supremo, things have remained the same ever since.

Because Formula 1 was mainstream, there were a lot of younger fans. These younger fans would've watched heroes such as Lauda and Hunt, the tragedy of Villeneuve, and then the "Golden Era" of Prost, Mansell, Senna, etc, etc, etc. All of this played into Formula 1's hands. Every season had a lot of drama, every season had a surprise, every season had a hero and a villain. A lot of these young fans were no longer young, but still very much interested in Formula 1.

Slowly, however, things changed. These heroes left, the technology improved, certain teams became dominant. The fans originally captured by the drama of Formula 1 became impatient. Where were the Villeneuve's, the Prost's, the Senna's? For the next 10 years, Michael Schumacher was the nearest driver to becoming a "hero". He was controversial, a robot, emotionless, unsporting, etc, etc, etc, etc, had the best car all of the time, etc, etc, etc, etc. The racing was nothing compared to the days of old. Where had those days gone?

As a result of that, Formula 1 gained a reputation for being less exciting, and more processional. Whilst the mid-2000s were hardly exciting, the 1988 season was hardly competitive! I just picked the 1986 season out of the hat - one regularly regarded as a great season - and yet only 4 races had the top 2 within 15 seconds of each other when the flag was dropped - the classic in Spain, and the British GP, and the Italian GP, and the Adelaide finale (which was the 3rd race of the season where only the top 2 were on the lead lap). Hardly sounds like the season was producing epic racing!

But still the fans craved the past, the glory days. And as a result, a lot of the potential younger fans tuned in to hear moans about how Schumacher kept on winning and how unfair it all was compared to how amazing it was in the past. That's pretty off-putting! The whinges carried on.

Until, I should say, 2014.

Yes, there may be a dominant team, but the rivalry between Hamilton and Rosberg is very tense, thrilling to watch, and certainly competes with Senna/Prost. Whilst they may not be quite as active off-track, on the track it's just as good.

Look further behind, Williams have returned to the front with a driver line-up of a 30-second WDC and a future WDC, a 4-time WDC is being beaten fair and square by a relatively inexperienced, thoroughly likeable teammate at RBR, and the battle for around 5th and behind produces the best wheel to wheel racing Formula has seen in a generation between all sorts of cars and drivers, be it proven WDCs such as Alonso and Button, hugely talented but luckless drivers such as Hulkenberg, or rookies such as Magnussen. The racing is absolutely incredible, and every GP produces a spectacle for anyone who enjoys racing. Even Marussia claimed 2 points at Monaco! What's there not to like? This is, after all, Formula 1 returning to the good old days of turbos, unreliability, and proper racing.

But no. The engines are too quiet. The double points finale is stupid. The drivers need to be able to express themselves to the media. Why is there run-off here. Why is there team radio? 18-inch rims look stupid. Signing a 17-year-old into Formula 1 is ludicrous. And don't get me started on the front wings...

Does any aspect of Formula 1 make it worth watching anymore? Not if you listen to the fans. They've got almost exactly what they've been asking for ever since 1994, and now, after 20 years, their still not happy. I'm actually appalled at some of the comments on here, and feel free to be appalled at me, but whilst you're doing so, realise that a lot of reasons why Formula 1 is so unpopular is because the fans constantly want something else, and maybe that's just not possible. Maybe it's just a delusion, formed by nostalgia. Maybe that's what it is.

So going back to my very first paragraph, the reason why F1 would still be popular among young people is because they'd enjoy the racing. They wouldn't complain about the engine noise being too quiet. Why? Because they don't remember the "good old days." They weren't around. Formula 1's current package is absolutely amazing. If you don't like it, I'm not sure you're watching the right sport...


As a side note, a fair few of my posts are opinions that are different, often controversial, and posted on here to generate discussion, but are not actually my personal views. But a lot of this is my personal opinion. Have a nice day.

[chillibowl]

good points in their Biscuits.

i dont say it enough but the racing has been pretty excellent over the past few years.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

But, being honest, in 20 years time the current era will be remembered very fondly. Don't take it for granted right now. Enjoy it while it lasts. One tragedy of life is that all good things come to an end.

[Greem]

And others emerge to take their place.

[BtccLee]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Maybe if there were no generation overlaps when it came to sports fans, and the new generation were totally separated from the old generation of fans, then Formula 1 would still be very popular.

Why? It's actually fairly simple.

Formula 1 was largely a rich mans hobby. There wasn't a huge amount of media hype, mainly because the media didn't really exist, and those that did didn't have any major interests. Then it all changed in 1976 when the epic title battle between Niki Lauda and James Hunt reached a conclusion. Due to the tension in this fight, and the increase in live international sports coverage, many international media companies cashed in on this. Suddenly Formula 1 became mainstream, and, seeing as this coincided with the rise of Mr Ecclestone to become Formula 1's supremo, things have remained the same ever since.

Because Formula 1 was mainstream, there were a lot of younger fans. These younger fans would've watched heroes such as Lauda and Hunt, the tragedy of Villeneuve, and then the "Golden Era" of Prost, Mansell, Senna, etc, etc, etc. All of this played into Formula 1's hands. Every season had a lot of drama, every season had a surprise, every season had a hero and a villain. A lot of these young fans were no longer young, but still very much interested in Formula 1.

Slowly, however, things changed. These heroes left, the technology improved, certain teams became dominant. The fans originally captured by the drama of Formula 1 became impatient. Where were the Villeneuve's, the Prost's, the Senna's? For the next 10 years, Michael Schumacher was the nearest driver to becoming a "hero". He was controversial, a robot, emotionless, unsporting, etc, etc, etc, etc, had the best car all of the time, etc, etc, etc, etc. The racing was nothing compared to the days of old. Where had those days gone?

As a result of that, Formula 1 gained a reputation for being less exciting, and more processional. Whilst the mid-2000s were hardly exciting, the 1988 season was hardly competitive! I just picked the 1986 season out of the hat - one regularly regarded as a great season - and yet only 4 races had the top 2 within 15 seconds of each other when the flag was dropped - the classic in Spain, and the British GP, and the Italian GP, and the Adelaide finale (which was the 3rd race of the season where only the top 2 were on the lead lap). Hardly sounds like the season was producing epic racing!

But still the fans craved the past, the glory days. And as a result, a lot of the potential younger fans tuned in to hear moans about how Schumacher kept on winning and how unfair it all was compared to how amazing it was in the past. That's pretty off-putting! The whinges carried on.

Until, I should say, 2014.

Yes, there may be a dominant team, but the rivalry between Hamilton and Rosberg is very tense, thrilling to watch, and certainly competes with Senna/Prost. Whilst they may not be quite as active off-track, on the track it's just as good.

Look further behind, Williams have returned to the front with a driver line-up of a 30-second WDC and a future WDC, a 4-time WDC is being beaten fair and square by a relatively inexperienced, thoroughly likeable teammate at RBR, and the battle for around 5th and behind produces the best wheel to wheel racing Formula has seen in a generation between all sorts of cars and drivers, be it proven WDCs such as Alonso and Button, hugely talented but luckless drivers such as Hulkenberg, or rookies such as Magnussen. The racing is absolutely incredible, and every GP produces a spectacle for anyone who enjoys racing. Even Marussia claimed 2 points at Monaco! What's there not to like? This is, after all, Formula 1 returning to the good old days of turbos, unreliability, and proper racing.

But no. The engines are too quiet. The double points finale is stupid. The drivers need to be able to express themselves to the media. Why is there run-off here. Why is there team radio? 18-inch rims look stupid. Signing a 17-year-old into Formula 1 is ludicrous. And don't get me started on the front wings...

Does any aspect of Formula 1 make it worth watching anymore? Not if you listen to the fans. They've got almost exactly what they've been asking for ever since 1994, and now, after 20 years, their still not happy. I'm actually appalled at some of the comments on here, and feel free to be appalled at me, but whilst you're doing so, realise that a lot of reasons why Formula 1 is so unpopular is because the fans constantly want something else, and maybe that's just not possible. Maybe it's just a delusion, formed by nostalgia. Maybe that's what it is.

So going back to my very first paragraph, the reason why F1 would still be popular among young people is because they'd enjoy the racing. They wouldn't complain about the engine noise being too quiet. Why? Because they don't remember the "good old days." They weren't around. Formula 1's current package is absolutely amazing. If you don't like it, I'm not sure you're watching the right sport...


As a side note, a fair few of my posts are opinions that are different, often controversial, and posted on here to generate discussion, but are not actually my personal views. But a lot of this is my personal opinion. Have a nice day.

Probably one of the finest posts regarding Formula 1 anywhere for a long time. Agree with everything, just not clever enough to articulate it quite like that.

[Tucky]

I don't remember racing in the 80's (mainly because I wasn't born, but that's just a side issue), but for those of you who do, was there complaints about it "not being like the 60's"? Just curious because I can't imagine that it's only in the last 10 years that people have been complaining about F1. Obviously the internet has had a massive part in spreading negativity but it still must have occurred.

[Razzzor]

Yeah I think it's down to the internet armchair enthusiasts that like to moan. I love F1 and always have, and always will. It's about the racing, seeing competitive races and the best drivers in the world, at least for me.

I don't give a damn about all the little things such as tyre smoke off the grid, the engines being quieter, the drivers being too PC out of the the car (it's not an effing soap opera!), DRS/Kers, double points races, team radio.

Having said that I do agree with them clamping down on team radio, because that is affecting the racing. They need to stop drivers from driving to an exact laptime down to the tenth. Get back to drivers just pushing flat out because they can (ie Senna, Schumacher).

The racing this year has been pretty good. But don't forget the last several years guys... it's been just as good, probably better most of the time because we've had more than 1 team fighting for wins. In some ways this year is one of the weaker seasons of this era. Only the times when Vettel and Schumacher dominated so much was there less of a battle up front, but I don't think the Ferrari or RB ever had the kind of advantage Mercedes has this year.

But overall, since the Schumacher/Ferrari stranglehold finished, the last 10 years have been fantastic (and for me the Schumi era was great anyway because I was a big fan of his).

It still could be better, we don't have the unpredictability and diversity in winners that Indycar has enjoyed for a few seasons now, but it's still pretty good.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Gone are the days when cars would light up the rear tyres with plumes of blue smoke off the grid. That's what I miss from the start process. Something has changed in those terms, when it all seemed more "analogue", you would have cars getting away all at different speeds. Now all the cars more or less get away equally unless one bogs down and goes into some anti-stall mode or something. I'm not an expert on the technology involved, but for me there should be no interference from electronics during the start procedure, it should be the guy's right foot and the engine and clutch and that's it.

When was the last time anyone saw a driver light up the rear tyres with smoke at the start?

EDIT; literally the first youtube video I chose, not one car produced tyre smoke at the start...

No smoke
2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3RjGV-ewRg

Lots of smoke
1997
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8YQHDwUKik

Great to hear Murray Walker again isn't it! Of course with Murrayisms even in that 30 secs he doesn't seem to understand that Schumacher is in the red car and Hakkinen in the silver :P

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Yeah I think it's down to the internet armchair enthusiasts that like to moan. I love F1 and always have, and always will. It's about the racing, seeing competitive races and the best drivers in the world, at least for me.

I don't give a damn about all the little things such as tyre smoke off the grid, the engines being quieter, the drivers being too PC out of the the car (it's not an effing soap opera!), DRS/Kers, double points races, team radio.

Having said that I do agree with them clamping down on team radio, because that is affecting the racing. They need to stop drivers from driving to an exact laptime down to the tenth. Get back to drivers just pushing flat out because they can (ie Senna, Schumacher).

The racing this year has been pretty good. But don't forget the last several years guys... it's been just as good, probably better most of the time because we've had more than 1 team fighting for wins. In some ways this year is one of the weaker seasons of this era. Only the times when Vettel and Schumacher dominated so much was there less of a battle up front, but I don't think the Ferrari or RB ever had the kind of advantage Mercedes has this year.

But overall, since the Schumacher/Ferrari stranglehold finished, the last 10 years have been fantastic (and for me the Schumi era was great anyway because I was a big fan of his).

It still could be better, we don't have the unpredictability and diversity in winners that Indycar has enjoyed for a few seasons now, but it's still pretty good.

Your post gets a "10" from me....

[GTRMagic]

The challenge is, teams are constantly instructing drivers to optimise settings on the car when they fall out of scope. This would likely save the components from failure, or at lease sub-optimal performance.

In the world of only 5 ICEs in a season, 5 turbos, 5 ECUs.. etc... saving components is one of the newer jobs teams have to achieve.

This wont happen without telemetry or without pit to car radio communications.

Nor will the bright strategy ploys, of giving a pilot a half dozen laps before they pit to take the car 100%... then go again back in strategy mode.. or to save fuel when required because the team specifically underfuelled..

You are likely to find more than a few cars by the side of the road, either blown up or fuel-free...

[Tucky]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

It still could be better, we don't have the unpredictability and diversity in winners that Indycar has enjoyed for a few seasons now, but it's still pretty good.

It's getting better, at least the limit on components should hep the unpredictability problem we've been having. Also the Mercs may be predictably in front but the mid pack is so close now and any one of the teams could come out on top.

Back on topic, as has been mentioned already the ban is only on communication concerning the lap/any gains to be made. Everything else such as telemetry, strategy, car settings, fuel etc is still allowed so we shouldn't be seeing more cars that DNF. The only difference is there shouldn't be as much minute management by the pitwall anymore. So what we have is more independence for the driver in terms of how they drive the car whilst not having to worry even more about the car reaching the finish without the teams help and possibly resulting in teams going slower to avoid straining the engines.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Gone are the days when cars would light up the rear tyres with plumes of blue smoke off the grid. That's what I miss from the start process. Something has changed in those terms, when it all seemed more "analogue", you would have cars getting away all at different speeds. Now all the cars more or less get away equally unless one bogs down and goes into some anti-stall mode or something. I'm not an expert on the technology involved, but for me there should be no interference from electronics during the start procedure, it should be the guy's right foot and the engine and clutch and that's it.

When was the last time anyone saw a driver light up the rear tyres with smoke at the start?

EDIT; literally the first youtube video I chose, not one car produced tyre smoke at the start...

No smoke
2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3RjGV-ewRg

Lots of smoke
1997
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8YQHDwUKik

The drive-by-wire system does not prevent wheelspin, as it is not an active system that monitors and controls the speed of both the propelled wheels and the car.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The drive-by-wire system does not prevent wheelspin, as it is not an active system that monitors and controls the speed of both the propelled wheels and the car.

What does prevent wheel spin if the FBW does not? There is some control at work and if not FBW what is it?

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Casper

What does prevent wheel spin if the FBW does not? There is some control at work and if not FBW what is it?

The effect of drive-by-wire systems are not principally the same as mechanical but fantastically complex throttle linkages. The drive-by-wire systems, however, allow a more rapid change of the fixed (!) link between the throttle pedal and the engine. In fact, it allows multiple setups available to the driver.
As traction control is banned, nothing than the driver's foot actively prevents wheel spin.

[VIVA GT]

Fly By Wire throttle control is basically a system where, instead of having a mechanical cable (linkages, or a piece of string) that transmits the movement of the throttle pedal directly to the throttle butterfly (ies), it is done electrically.
This means that a sensor on the throttle pedal tells the Engine Control Unit how much (and often how quickly) the pedal has been moved. The engine Control Unit will then send whatever type of signal it has been told to under these conditions to an actuator on the throttle butterfly to open or close it by a certain amount.
FBW throttle control can be used in conjunction with traction control, but is not capable of creating complete traction control all on its own.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by davyboy

It'll be interesting to see how they go about issuing team orders !

F1 being F1, it won't be long before they come up with encrypted code to replace the explicit communication.

"Nico, do you want fries with your Big Mac after the race" = "Mode 3, Strategy 2, Pit in 2 laps time"

"Lewis is asking for Diet Coke" = "Lewis is taking medium tyres this time and will be running a long stint"

Looks like Charlie Whiting's been reading my posts on here. Listen Charlie... wouldn't be easier to remove all forms of pit to car communication and have race control to car communication instead. If the team wanted to issue a team order or call their driver into the pits... they do it via race control... all other safety related stuff... including informing the driver to get out of the way during qualifying could be done by race control alone.

[chillibowl]

we will see how it goes but i suspect initially more SC periods particularly right at the start as drivers struggle to get to grips with their steering controls. like all things though the drivers will adjust like they always do because they are actually incredibly skilled despite the FIA, FOM, the media etc assertions that they lack skill.

the belief is that this will highlight driver skill but surely the end result of this is that next years cars are going to be designed to make them easier and more simple to drive.

radio communication is necessary due to the complexity of the cars. im probably backwards on this but i just dont understand how giving a driver less to do in a cockpit increases the perception that this is about driver skill.

i also dont understand what period of F1's history are they trying to go back too. when is the last time grid ran without the aid of radio communications and telemetry between themselves and the pits? 50 plus years ago?

like Biscuits suggested though we should just stop complaining (well i guess im one of the only people complaining) and enjoy this new challenge but just cant help shake the feeling that this is just another example of the world going one way while F1 goes the other way.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Oh look the fans aren't happy. Let's go back to 1962. That's how I see this, anyway. Team radio gives Formula 1 a lot of controversies and great moments, such as team orders disputes (most recently Merc at Hungary, but also Williams at Sepang this season, Multi 21, and Rob Smedley) but also memorable moments such as Kimi's "I know what I'm doing" and Vettel mimicking that. Team radio also gives the fans a small insight into what goes on behind the scenes. Drivers are "guided" by their engineers, and are helped in their work, but most of the job is done by the drivers. The media loved these moments, and fed off of them to bring Formula 1 into the headlines.

I don't understand why Formula should even move backwards in technology. I had never read one criticism of team radio until the FIA brought the issue up, and suddenly it turns out that everyone hates it. Really? Everyone seems to have jumped on this bandwagon because they have their own image of how Formula 1 should be, and that image is one of Mansell and Senna inches apart sparking down the Barcelona straight. Because this season isn't good enough? Clearly they just haven't been watching, or are really hard to please. I think it's a bit of both...

[mattthompson79]

Some interesting comments on here, I'm actually surprised that the team radio changes have not been met with more enthusiasm.

Personally F1 is not only about the best technology powering the fastest cars, but is more importantly drivers competing against each other. Team radio where drivers are told about conserving tyres, saving fuel or where they can find an extra tenth, has no place in F1. Drivers should be working this out for themselves and making decisions.

Just to note, requests from the teams regarding team orders will not be banned.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Oh look the fans aren't happy. Let's go back to 1962. That's how I see this, anyway. Team radio gives Formula 1 a lot of controversies and great moments, such as team orders disputes (most recently Merc at Hungary, but also Williams at Sepang this season, Multi 21, and Rob Smedley) but also memorable moments such as Kimi's "I know what I'm doing" and Vettel mimicking that. Team radio also gives the fans a small insight into what goes on behind the scenes. Drivers are "guided" by their engineers, and are helped in their work, but most of the job is done by the drivers. The media loved these moments, and fed off of them to bring Formula 1 into the headlines.

I don't understand why Formula should even move backwards in technology. I had never read one criticism of team radio until the FIA brought the issue up, and suddenly it turns out that everyone hates it. Really? Everyone seems to have jumped on this bandwagon because they have their own image of how Formula 1 should be, and that image is one of Mansell and Senna inches apart sparking down the Barcelona straight. Because this season isn't good enough? Clearly they just haven't been watching, or are really hard to please. I think it's a bit of both...

Not sure how old you are, but races in the 'good old days' were processional too with a small number of drivers in the best car dominating every season. Not only that but you had terrible attrition - it was commonplace to have less than 10 cars finish a race. For the large number of races they competed in together, there were only a handful of interesting encounters between Mansell and Senna.

Personally I don't give too much of a damn whether they use radios or not, nor do I care whether they've double or triple points races - I suspect most people feel the same. They're all solutions to problems that never existed and more evidence that F1 is wasting too much time staring up its own arse.