Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[carbsmith]

Don't misunderstand. I pray for the sake of the employees that they have a long and competitive run in sports car racing.

But to claim you finished the race when the ACO says you didn't finish the race and you spent an hour in the garage for every two hours on the track is such a bald faced PR lie that it annihilates any faith or trust I have in the management above them. I don't hate the car because it's different, I dislike the program because I feel it's far more likely they'll be gone as soon as they've finished fishing for attention and we'll hear horror stories from the people left unemployed than they'll become a serious contender. How can you believe in people that treat everyone like idiots? The last time I saw this kind of used car salesman act in racing was USF1.

The confrontational nature of discussion about this is because nobody has ever come into sports car racing and acted so ridiculously before. It would be great if the cars ran well enough to actually race something at the Nurburgring so that's the main topic of discussion instead of what excuse they came up with this week.


I don't feel they're doing anyone a favour by turning up with what is the least technologically advanced car in the class and telling us how lazy and boring the most incredible, complex cars ever built are because they stuck the drivetrain at the other end and ran a variation of an aero concept we've seen attempted multiple times over the last 30 years.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Trebor123

Yet another statement, that is currently unsupported by any 'on the record' evidence- unless you can provide a source (or sources) for your various assertions.

Why do I have to prove the truth? Or cite sources?

Not everything is going to be "on the record" things don't work like that...and I will not compromise my confidences just to prove a point.

The car is heavy, and the engine in its current form runs right about 470hp, might be a little bit more, or a little bit less.... but for the sake of reliability, it's right about that.

You can believe what you like, or not. Your choice.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The lack of hybrid and overweight car is all fine and well for a reason on why it was slow, but I fail to see who's fault that is but their own. If Porsche had been at LMP2 speed in year 1 then we'd be sitting questioning what was going on. And if they'd said that they didn't have a working hybrid and the car was too heavy, and therefore they'd accomplished their mission by being too far behind to be classified, we'd all be questioning their commitment to the sport. I don't see why credit should be given for producing a bad car. Aston Martin wasn't showered in glory for the AMR-One.

I feel that since everyone is entering the same class, they should be judged by the same standard. Sorry if that isn't as all inclusive as we'd like the sports car fans to be, but neither is Nissans comments on the other teams. Sorry!

Good analogy to Porsche. Even ignoring the more childish posts, the counter-argument to all criticism seems to be always in the end "give them/it a break because it is different." Always seems to come down to that in a way or another.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by GTfour

I've followed this thread for the last few weeks now, not or hardly commenting. I've been around this forum for some years and I have to say, it's the first time since the Deltawing that I've seen so many childisch, intensely negative and complacent comments about a newly entered racing team, entering a brand new and highly different machine then anyone has ever done before.

In my honest oppinion, I think that them naysayers should realise that Nissan is doing us fans a big favour bringing something so innovative and daring in to the frey.
So it's not up to speed yet. And? It's a factory effort. A big factory effort at that. O.k., it's not as big as the current LMP1 competition(yet) but still big enough to be able to persevere and make this car competetive. This is nothing like the failed Aston LMP1, which was way underfunded.

Lastly, I'd like to especially adress the more fanatic 'el negativo's' on this thread: in the years I've enjoyed all the great discussing of our so beloved sportscars, I've never whitnessed admins having to shut down a thread because of the many annoying, bickering and nagging comments. I was stunned to see this but could very well imagine the admins reasons to do so.
So for the sake of keeping this forum the best sportscar forum on the planet: STOP IT. If you have no faith in this project or you believe it's no serious effort, good for you but then please leave this thread. It's very boring to read all them socalled well informed downplaying comments.

I've seen the Nissan's accelarate out of Mulsanne corner, building up speed and flying by my nose at very high speed. I've seen them battling with the top LMP2's for many laps too. It's a racecar and they look great.

Thanks. What a superb post.

, .

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by deggis

Good analogy to Porsche. Even ignoring the more childish posts, the counter-argument to all criticism seems to be always in the end "give them/it a break because it is different." Always seems to come down to that in a way or another.

It's a completely fair point. But. As I've added in for emphasis... it's the truth.

When you have to change your entire engineering mindset, as Brandon Fry was so nice to point out, it's going to take time to figure it all out.

If they'd copied a M/R layout, and just came to play and were this slow, I'd be a more concerned, but, would still give them time.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

The car is heavy, and the engine in its current form runs right about 470hp, might be a little bit more, or a little bit less.... but for the sake of reliability, it's right about that.

If that is true, they should ask their money back from Cosworth.

The engines of the other manufacturers are developing around 600 hp with much lower maximum fuel flow. The official number of Audi, which is an understatement, is over 410 kW (558 hp) and over 850 Nm.

Nissan runs with 94.3 kg/h max flow, compared to Toyota with 89.5 kg/h and Porsche with 88.5 kg/h.

[Nissan LMP1]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Andy Palmer left the company a long time ago. He is an idiot who made brash claims about everything..

Dare to say that to his face, Ryan boy?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

If that is true, they should ask their money back from Cosworth.

The engines of the other manufacturers are developing around 600 hp with much lower maximum fuel flow. The official number of Audi, which is an understatement, is over 410 kW (558 hp) and over 850 Nm.

Nissan runs with 94.3 kg/h max flow, compared to Toyota with 89.5 kg/h and Porsche with 88.5 kg/h.

It was stated on a couple different times during the race (not sure by who) that the car was running its engine conservatively. They also had no ers and is more than likely overweight. For them to do a 3:35 is a good sign imo. They were braking so early, GTE was going deeper in the chicanes. They need more time and they have it before Nurburgring. Im sure they learned a lot from Le Mans.

[Bell_End]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

After Le Mans I would expect Nissan to be about the same level as Porsche were last year in 2016. They have a long way to go in a number of areas. Besides actual car performance there is the whole thing of getting the team working together, the car will need to be more race friendly as in being able to fix something fast, the best example was their nose change which seemed to take ages where as Porsche did a nose change and full service in about 90 seconds.
In terms of performance they seem weakest in 3 areas downforce, acceleration and brakes. The latter 2 are down primarily to their flywheel and transmission system not working as originally intended.

Their 'to do' list after Le Mans must take up a few Gigabytes.
If they get their flywheel system working properly that car is potentially very fast with a question mark over cornering ability.
The car seems to have been designed with no compromises in terms of aero and power unit where as Porsche seems to have compromised on a smaller power unit for packaging purposes.
It will be interesting to see how the Nissan develops and whether they can overcome their problems.

Look at all the mission critical stuff in the nose, never going to win le mans these days when you can't do a nose change during a normal pitstop.

[GingerPixel]

The crash structure is the pointy bit with the Nissan badge on it right? If it was really strong, I suppose the idea is that it protects all the complicated bits behind it? I wonder why Nissan have gone for such a big engine when packaging and weight seem so critical. I'd imagine the next gen road going GTR with a big power/small capacity turbo motor derived from a endurance racer would be right up their alley.

Alongside many of the points made above, braking seems to be the barrier between the car and some quicker laps. I'd be interested to know about brake balances on the really big stops. The back end looked pretty light and skittish under big deceleration at LM.

Getting this thing to work properly is a fascinating problem, but I am very glad that its not my problem!

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by GingerPixel

I wonder why Nissan have gone for such a big engine when packaging and weight seem so critical.

Actually, at 3 liters it's actually the second-smallest engine in LMP1-L, only the Porsche's 2-liter being smaller. Audi and Toyota both have 3.7-liter engines in their cars.

[GingerPixel]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Actually, at 3 liters it's actually the second-smallest engine in LMP1-L, only the Porsche's 2-liter being smaller. Audi and Toyota both have 3.7-liter engines in their cars.

I suppose I meant in comparison to the philosophy of the concept, but I take your point

[alless]

Anybody knows how much max RPM and what idle RPM would nissan have?

[Simmi]

I'm glad I was at the race and not getting caught in the cross-fire of this thread.

Having seen their debut I'm intrigued to see what comes next, but I think the remainder of the WEC season is going to be equally painful for Nissan.

I've no doubt at all they can claw back 70% of their laptime deficit to their rivals. Once things slot into place it should pick up momentum like a rolling snowball. Working hybrid system, running as four-wheel-drive, get the brakes and tyres back to the original design philosophy. Remove what I imagine are a multitude of other necessary short-term compromises.

There are huge gains to be had around weight and aerodynamics. And all the other detail stuff that was left alone while trying to simply get the car running.

My fear for Nissan is once they have all that, will they realistically be able to find those smaller gains which ultimately bring success and make them competitive? Essentially, is this a race-winning package when running optimally?

It was so slow through the corners, bordering on upsetting to watch, as it held up GT-Am cars through the Ford Chicane. I think it was Marshall Pruett on RLM in the night who said the car cannot touch the kerbs as it massively destabilizes the chassis. Hence my fears about the rest of the WEC season. To my untrained, untechnical eye it seems like a fundamental design flaw. I'm trying to imagine seeing this car really being pushed through the corners. Hopefully it can be and that's not the case.

Then you've got questions around serviceability, which I think could ultimately be it's biggest downfall if they keep developing this car. It can be as fast as it wants but we saw a number of LMP1 incidents during the last week that would have been on the spot retirements had they happened to Nissans.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Bell_End

Look at all the mission critical stuff in the nose, never going to win le mans these days when you can't do a nose change during a normal pitstop.

Very good point, I doubt this would have made it back on track after a Duval type shunt.

Crucial part of LM now is making the car easily repairable to give it a chance to be in the hunt should others fall by the wayside. Audi of all people grapsed this concept early on.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Actually, at 3 liters it's actually the second-smallest engine in LMP1-L, only the Porsche's 2-liter being smaller. Audi and Toyota both have 3.7-liter engines in their cars.

Do not forget the 2.4 (?) liter AER engine

If Nissan wanted to be in the 8 MJ ERS class, a small lightweight engine is essential.

[wolfhound]

I know the Nissan engine is low revving but a 3 litre race engine should be capable of 500BHP without a turbo. It just seems unnecessary complication & weight for an optimal engine design for the formula.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Bell_End

Look at all the mission critical stuff in the nose, never going to win le mans these days when you can't do a nose change during a normal pitstop.

I agree it can be an advantage to have a nose you can change quickly. However how many Le Mans winners down the years had a nose change during the race?

It is quite a complex piece of kit too, irrespective of all the critical stuff underneath. Here is the car without nose section on Saturday.

[Adam43]

So, from the race what do we have?

It was an incredible team effort to get a car to the finish. Even get one started! The effort and the ability to keep going was brilliant.
The drivers did their job well too. A good test.

However the car was hopelessly off pace. Much more so than other teams at a similar point in the development. Ultimately this could just be that it is a concept that is very different to the norm and we should expect it to start further back. Would it be that far back? We can not tell whether it is because they are horrendously under prepared considering the concept, or whether it is because inherently the concept will not produce the performance required.

It will be interesting to see how that pans out. Time will tell, but it may be a long time.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I think it was Marshall Pruett on RLM in the night who said the car cannot touch the kerbs as it massively destabilizes the chassis. Hence my fears about the rest of the WEC season. To my untrained, untechnical eye it seems like a fundamental design flaw. I'm trying to imagine seeing this car really being pushed through the corners. Hopefully it can be and that's not the case.

That is pretty obvious from onboards, taking Ford Chicanes really gently and nearly avoiding going over the curbs completely. Also makes an odd sound when accelerating out of slow corners (Mulsanne, Arnage), the kind of sound as if the engine was about to stall, but I think it could be just the traction control. Generally looks pretty awful to drive.

ps. Interesting: I capped the start and first hour from the #22 car from Nismotv's onboard channel and uploaded it to Youtube. Got a copyright notice from Nismotv and it was blocked (that's a first for current day onboard that isn't F1). Later Nismotv uploaded the start and first lap themselves, but then it was marked as private video. The copyright notice is technically correct, but I wonder if this is about hiding something that might have happened.

[Akrapovic]

Lol copyright notices on videos. How very good for the sport.

[Keycube]

Originally Posted by deggis

That is pretty obvious from onboards, taking Ford Chicanes really gently and nearly avoiding going over the curbs completely. Also makes an odd sound when accelerating out of slow corners (Mulsanne, Arnage), the kind of sound as if the engine was about to stall, but I think it could be just the traction control. Generally looks pretty awful to drive.

I watched a lot of the onboard camera off the ACO app, and to me the car sounded as though it were "skipping" out of those corners, like a go-kart with a live axle. Could this have anything to do with the lack of rear tire width/downforce and/or the fronts being overworked while turning and applying power?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Lol copyright notices on videos. How very good for the sport.

I suspect that they want to be the ones to share it. Fair enough, it's their stuff. I also suspect that this line of discussion will be more 'popular' (easy) than actual discussion of their race.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Keycube

I watched a lot of the onboard camera off the ACO app, and to me the car sounded as though it were "skipping" out of those corners, like a go-kart with a live axle. Could this have anything to do with the lack of rear tire width/downforce and/or the fronts being overworked while turning and applying power?

From trackside it looked horrible. Considering the other side the corner to what you've mentioned the braking was particularly painful to watch. It seemed early compared to some and the rear locked up a few times.

All other cars (LMP1/2 and GT) were quicker mid corner and initially out of the corner. This was especially apparent in the Ford chicane. Often a following car would have to pull out on exit as if to overtake, only for the speed of the Nissan to pull it clear once it was well out of the corner. Compared to cars of a similar lap time the way it produced that lap time was very different.

I suppose that makes it very impressive that it gets to the top speed it does, as it starts from a much lower speed.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Do not forget the 2.4 (?) liter AER engine

There's a reason I specified LMP1-H.

At least, that's what I WOULD say in my defense had I not been tired when I wrote that(was on my way to bed) and accidentally typed LMP1-L.

(though frankly the fact that I never mentioned the AER engine shoulda been a tip off to what I actually meant)

If Nissan wanted to be in the 8 MJ ERS class, a small lightweight engine is essential.

3 liters is QUITE small an lightweight. People tend to forget that because cars of this type like engines in that size range.

At the end of the day, though, the efficiency of the energy recovery is more important than anything else.