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Old 14 Nov 2017, 21:15 (Ref:3780461)   #5236
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DPi is 'great' because it's cheap and easy. You take a p2 chassis that's readily available, put some makeup (stickers, nose job and/or blade wing) on it, throw your engine in the back that comes from another race car and viola! Look at my Nissan, Acura, Cadillac, Mazda 'DPi', which is actually a mildly modified lmp2.

As for the new lmp1 rules, I think the performance window means the cars need to be doing 3:20's at Le Mans and make a such and such amount of downforce/drag. I don't see them doing the bop route IMSA has taken when they have a perfectly fine fuel flow system in place.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 21:21 (Ref:3780463)   #5237
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It's just like Formula E or NASCAR to me, wolf under sheeps clothing, ILLUSION of manufacturer interest and participation while in reality there's really nothing but cars made by other people run by small to medium sized privateer teams.
So Joest and Penske are medium sized privateers for you?
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 21:21 (Ref:3780464)   #5238
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As for the new lmp1 rules, I think the performance window means the cars need to be doing 3:20's at Le Mans and make a such and such amount of downforce/drag. I don't see them doing the bop route IMSA has taken when they have a perfectly fine fuel flow system in place.
But the "2016 GTE" reference is worrying.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 21:31 (Ref:3780466)   #5239
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So Joest and Penske are medium sized privateers for you?
Sure some of them are high end. But even those, if they are not backed by full or even semi-full mfg support but rather just given the nod to run the cars with stickers and sponsorship and some basic assistance, then I cannot really rank them up there with even privateer LMP1 teams.

Does anyone really think that someone like Mazda is throwing large sums of money at Joest after screwing around with Speedsource for millenia...
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 21:51 (Ref:3780469)   #5240
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Sure some of them are high end. But even those, if they are not backed by full or even semi-full mfg support but rather just given the nod to run the cars with stickers and sponsorship and some basic assistance, then I cannot really rank them up there with even privateer LMP1 teams.

Does anyone really think that someone like Mazda is throwing large sums of money at Joest after screwing around with Speedsource for millenia...
Look at it the other way around - would Joest and especially Penske bother if there wasn't serious money in those projects?

I'm not suggesting anything insane, but I don't think it's too different from what they had to work with for their ALMS campaigns. Sure, there is no need for megabucks R&D-programs, but if we look at the pure running costs we probably aren't too far away from anything we've seen e.g. in the latter R8 years in ALMS once there was no true factory competition.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 21:54 (Ref:3780471)   #5241
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I'm not sure what your point is. IMSA made an attractive class, regardless of where the manufacturers came from.
My point is that the situation makes DPi look more attractive than it actually seems to be when you really look at the bigger picture. Manfuacturers aren't tripping over themselves to join up, and the only active manufacturers were already running similar programs.

DPi is clearly not as widely attractive as it's being made out to be.

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Historical data like that ignores the lack of manufacturers in LMP1/LMP900, on both sides of the pond. Also ignores that DTM is at deaths door with a record low manufacturer entry.
And yet Super GT is not, which indicates something specifically wrong with DTM itself rather than an issue with the Class One concept.

And no, DTM is not at a record low. AS it stands now it looks like Audi and BMW will stick around, which makes two manufacturers - The exact number that were active when the series relaunched in 2000 up until 2004, and which they had again from 2007 through 2013.

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So it can be rationalised anyway someone wants, saying "Well what manufacturers ACTUALLY want is this", but recent history disagrees - DPi is the most popular manufacturer based prototype series in the world right now (even if you include GT500).
Recent history has been including classes that require massive initial investments to start a program as well.

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But practically, DPi is doing great.
For what it is, sure. But DPi is simply not proving to be as widely attractive as it has been claimed.

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So if we're going to go down the route of a purchased chassis, some branded drag bodywork, and a balance of performance, then DPi seems just fine. Anything else is overkill - the idea of spending money to build your own car just to have it BoP'd down is particularly silly.
I've gone over this before, but many(NOT all - getting sick of people who claim I'm making a universal statement when I mention this) engineers actually like BoP because it provides them challenges with which to overcome(just look at the success and continued development of GT3 cars). But that's not the point here, so moving on.

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Personally I'd rather see more traditional racing with actual manufacturer cars (with a healthy amount of private cars somewhere in there too).
That's what this rumor was pointing towards - the tub may be a big part of the car, but it's only one part of the whole. The manufacturers would be free to build EVERYTHING else - suspension, engine, EVERYTHING not safety related would be up to the manufacturer.

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But if we're going down the route of BoP's a branded drag body work, then I don't see a reason to not use DPi.
The thing is, the rumor that popped into my inbox says nothing about BoP. Today's news story is the first indication I saw that such is even being considered for new-look LMP1. The rumor I got indicated that the spec tub would be a cost saving and safety measure, nothing more, nothing less.

But as for specifically why not to use DPi... It's because the manufacturers have so little they're allowed to do. It's clearly not what the bulk of the manufacturers actually want, it's only suited to the few that are involved, only one of which(Honda) was involved a less restricted class of prototypes prior to DPi's existence.

DPi is NOT a long-term solution. It's was a short-term idea thrown together to meet the needs of a few specific manufacturers.

Without the "build off of an LMP2 tub" aspect, DPi is literally non-hybrid LMP1. That class isn't attracting any real interest(despite Chiana's statement earlier, we do NOT appear to have a "great" LMP1 field building for 2018), so what makes one think DPi would do any better?

Consider this: IT has been made clear now that manufacturer branding is part of the talks for the next LMP1 rulebook. Obviously manufacturer branding is appealing or the talks wouldn't move in this direction. But it's clearly not the end-all-be-all of the matter, or DPi would be getting a ton more interest than it has. This means there's something that prospective LMP1 manufacturers want that DPi doesn't have.

And the only thing I can think of is that it's because they can't build their own car, and what they CAN do to the base P2 chassis is extremely limited.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 22:07 (Ref:3780474)   #5242
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Originally Posted by Speed-King View Post
Look at it the other way around - would Joest and especially Penske bother if there wasn't serious money in those projects?

I'm not suggesting anything insane, but I don't think it's too different from what they had to work with for their ALMS campaigns. Sure, there is no need for megabucks R&D-programs, but if we look at the pure running costs we probably aren't too far away from anything we've seen in the latter R8 years in ALMS once there was no true factory competition.
Well for Joest we knew for sure they wanted to get back to something prototype-ish after Audi dumped LMP1, and from very early on they started mentioning NA (the other rumor was maybe running privateer R18 but obviously that never materialized). For them it may just well be running something moderately well known in the sportscar circles, just to keep in the business, so maybe their price tag for Mazda wasn't that expensive.

But moreover as I allured earlier, if Mazda really paid almost nothing for the IMSA Speedsource program (proven especially for how long they dragged along those ancient Lolas), why would they suddenly want to make such a big budget jump now? I mean sure they finally needed a new team to replace that terrible Rocketsports-esque band of fools running things, but I highly doubt the budget itself was skyrocketed all of a sudden. They know just as everyone else that these are performance balanced spec cars, and the only things that really matter are A) engine reliability B) caution lottery C) personnel running the vehicles.

As for Penske, again he's been saying for years he wants to go back to sportscars. In fact there have been rumors from time and time again that he'd like to do LMP1, not only at Le Mans (as it's top class) but also NA. But as there's nothing else but "DPi" now - which is what you want instead of barebody LMP2 because of some additional sponsorship and also OEM BoP bargaining tool - he sticks to that now.

It's somewhat difficult to draw comparisons to old ALMS as the economic situations were so different back then, but I guess that's fair

Anyway I don't follow IMSA anymore so I don't really know all the newer details really
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 22:17 (Ref:3780478)   #5243
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I’m sure it is a lot less than the Audi money they used to get, but it’ll have to be worthwhile for Joest. Especially as, if this is true, they had lots of offers. https://www.autosport.com/imsa/news/...ore-mazda-deal

Penske, he may well have wanted to go back to sportscars, but it is well known that Penske does not enter into any motorsport if there is no return.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 22:22 (Ref:3780481)   #5244
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Penske could really be wanting to lock on to that Oreca relationship, maybe he'll enter Le Mans with Oreca LMP1 now that there's actually realistic shot of winning the whole thing for the next 2-3 years?
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 22:46 (Ref:3780487)   #5245
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DPi is really cheap as pro level manufacturer racing programs go. I'd have to think Corvette Racing costs GM more than the Cadillacs with Le Mans in their schedule, let alone IndyCar.
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Old 14 Nov 2017, 23:07 (Ref:3780489)   #5246
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Well you know it's basically the old hated DP concept but with LMP2 cars. "DPG4". IDK why everyone loves it, I really don't. I mean yes they're faster and better looking and have modern components in them now, but that's about it.

Ganassi run in Grand-Am for years with DPs and that's about as prestige-level team as Penske and Joest right? It's gotta to be not that much higher cost with these even if they're not tube frame anymore

Performance balancing and spec vehicles ensure easiness for everyone around. Probably the biggest reason OEMs throw around ANY money in the first place is because
A) IMSA/NASCAR demand it in order to get the rebranded title (remember when Onroak was -demanded- to do more "Nissany things" to their body when it was clear it was basically just the barebody Oak chassis)
B) More OEM money into the series, the better chances of being friends with the BoP committee

Last edited by Chiana; 14 Nov 2017 at 23:15.
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 05:32 (Ref:3780514)   #5247
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But the "2016 GTE" reference is worrying.
I was confused by that as well. I'm not sure if that was a quote from the one's in the know, or if it was a guess/observation from the reporter? I never read anything else saying there would be a 'performance window' that would involve bop.
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 06:11 (Ref:3780516)   #5248
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LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules)

Come full circle.
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 12:01 (Ref:3780548)   #5249
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My point is that the situation makes DPi look more attractive than it actually seems to be when you really look at the bigger picture. Manfuacturers aren't tripping over themselves to join up, and the only active manufacturers were already running similar programs.

DPi is clearly not as widely attractive as it's being made out to be.
You keep talking about "made out to be". I'm not talking about what S365 says - I'm talking about actual manufacturers represented. DPi is the most popular right now.

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And no, DTM is not at a record low. AS it stands now it looks like Audi and BMW will stick around, which makes two manufacturers - The exact number that were active when the series relaunched in 2000 up until 2004, and which they had again from 2007 through 2013.
Lowest is 2. It's now at 2. That's a record.

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I've gone over this before, but many(NOT all - getting sick of people who claim I'm making a universal statement when I mention this) engineers actually like BoP because it provides them challenges with which to overcome(just look at the success and continued development of GT3 cars). But that's not the point here, so moving on.
GT3 is popular because it's a profit centre. Cars can be sold for a profit to customer and private entries. Series and classes don't become popular because engineers like a challenge.

[citation needed] for quite a lot.

If we're going the BoP route (which I'd rather not have), I see no valid reason to not use DPi. If we're not going the BoP route, then DPi doesn't really work.
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Old 15 Nov 2017, 12:50 (Ref:3780553)   #5250
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You keep talking about "made out to be". I'm not talking about what S365 says - I'm talking about actual manufacturers represented. DPi is the most popular right now.



Lowest is 2. It's now at 2. That's a record.



GT3 is popular because it's a profit centre. Cars can be sold for a profit to customer and private entries. Series and classes don't become popular because engineers like a challenge.

[citation needed] for quite a lot.

If we're going the BoP route (which I'd rather not have), I see no valid reason to not use DPi. If we're not going the BoP route, then DPi doesn't really work.
The reason because DPI is not the solution is that the brands want something like GTproto, GT1 style and DPI is not that.

Toyota Motorsport GmbH technical director Pascal Vasselon explained this idea clearly:
"make sure the bodywork supports better the manufacturer's products".
"At the moment an LMP1 is a kind of generic prototype and you have to paint it to put your mark on it," he said.
"The idea could be to go towards bodywork that is clearly closer to real cars it could interest manufacturers who at the moment who are not interested in a generic LMP."
Vasselon suggested that the styling would be much more extensive than in IMSA's Daytona Prototype international class in North America.

The CEO of Aston Martin manifested several times the interest in these cars and I am sure that Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette, Ford and McLaren are interested in these GT1 style cars too.
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