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Old 6 Dec 2015, 11:47 (Ref:3595883)   #1
old man
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F1 Not Attracting the Best Drivers?

In deciding the above title I want to add "And Does it Matter"

It is prompted by something heard yesterday concerning an already respected driver in his mid to late teens who is faced with an enviable decision. Does he take a free drive in a feeder series or a paid drive in another branch of motorsport? He is likely to take the latter.

In recent years when discussing objectives with kart drivers or those in say FF, Vauxhall Junior, F BMW, F Renault, the inevitable reply was "I want to get into F1" but this is increasingly not the case. The brighter ones are now looking simply for a career in whatever branch offers achievability. They see the budgets required to just get them through karting as frightening and realise that as they move into the feeder series these budgets get way out of family reach. They also see drivers in some cases with less perceived talent making it onto the F1 grid because of heavy backing.

To assist drivers there are various schemes that pick up "the best" and offer big support towards the budget for feeders and the driver has to find the rest, often a 50/50 split. Sponsors are attracted to a driver selected for such a scheme but rapidly lose interest if success does not follow. The best young drivers are inevitably highly intelligent, have family advisors or managers who, unless blinded by ambition, see the problems of the budget requirements to F1 and are increasingly looking at alternatives.

Another factor now is the short route taken by Verstappen and before him Button and Raikkonen, many think if they are not in F1 by 20 they have failed and so adjust objectives or have them adjusted. We saw Shumacher and Webber come into F1 through sportscar racing with others from Indycar and these routes should still be open but I do not at the moment see it happening.

Finally, does it matter?

I was attracted by motorsport when I discovered it in the late '40s and enthuse about the cars, the technology, the driving skills, the racing and see that excellent careers can be carved without "making it" to F1, there are many such examples with Tom Kristensen being perhaps the best from circuit racing, you will all list lots of others. It has changed over the years but one thing is constant, it costs a lot of money to buy the equipment if you want to achieve at the top level, even at club level it is not really cheap but vastly enjoyable.

So, what do others think, is F1 losing out on driver talent and does it matter?
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Old 6 Dec 2015, 12:43 (Ref:3595891)   #2
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That's a good question! Ever since I have been
following F1 since 1984 I have always thought that they
had the best drivers in 4 wheel motorsports. To drive that
fast on a road course is quite remarkable. To be trusted with
the most expensive gear on the planet a diver must be qualified
for that level. Seems like a lot of the successful sportscar racers
have some amount of F1 experience.

So I would say - yes - F1 does attract the best drivers.
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Old 6 Dec 2015, 12:44 (Ref:3595892)   #3
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The big problem for me is that with only 20 seats on the grid, so many talented drivers are missing out or leaving F1 too early, like di Resta. I only hope no more teams drop out
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Old 7 Dec 2015, 17:47 (Ref:3596169)   #4
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Dyson Mazda should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDyson Mazda should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
It does not help that there is very little movement in the driver ranks. Of the 20 confirmed drivers for 2016 (minus the 2 at Manor), 17 are in the same seat they were last year and all three that are not was caused by Haas joining the grid.
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Old 8 Dec 2015, 02:39 (Ref:3596302)   #5
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Given the reviews that Webber has given Timo Bernhard, it is clear that all the best drivers are not in F1.

MotoGP on the other hand - they are the best, no question, and no pay riders either!
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Old 8 Dec 2015, 02:53 (Ref:3596304)   #6
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MotoGP on the other hand - they are the best, no question, and no pay riders either!
I was thinking the same thing. That's why I mentioned 4 wheel motorsports.
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Old 8 Dec 2015, 08:58 (Ref:3596352)   #7
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F1 will always be the dream for every aspiring young driver but the sad truth is 99% of them will never make it, no matter how talented they are.

Money, lots of it, and connections (management) are the prime reasons. Add into the mix that circa 50% of the F1 teams require pay drivers and you're looking at maybe just 10 to 12 talent based seats.

I actually don't think that's good for F1 but frankly it's never been any different.

Drivers who want to earn a living from the sport should be encouraged to consider everything and anything......sure they won't become World famous or multi millionaires but they could do OK.
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Old 8 Dec 2015, 10:06 (Ref:3596369)   #8
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Ogier is one of the best 20 drivers in motorsports - don't remember him ever wanting to be in F1. Loeb similarly.....

So, No...the best drivers are not necessarily in F1.
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Old 8 Dec 2015, 10:30 (Ref:3596376)   #9
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Ogier is one of the best 20 drivers in motorsports - don't remember him ever wanting to be in F1. Loeb similarly.....

So, No...the best drivers are not necessarily in F1.
Loeb tried a few years ago, but the muppets said he did not qualify for a super licence.
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Old 8 Dec 2015, 11:38 (Ref:3596393)   #10
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Hotshots have always fallen off the radar for lack of cash, lesser drivers are in because of their cash and some drivers aren't interested in F1.

Realistically drivers should need to reach a certain threshold of high excellence but F1 being the best of the best is just marketing jazz.

I'm actually surprised that Kyle Busch earns less than Tom Kristensen but that list is hardly a metric for quality. Danica Patrick, for example, is a very middling character.
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Old 8 Dec 2015, 15:47 (Ref:3596433)   #11
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Thanks for that research wnut, interesting figures in those links, one wonders just how accurate but even if out by a large % they are still impressive.

Given these figures why would a talented driver not get himself over to the USA as quickly as possible, Max Chilton and his dad must wonder why they bothered with second tier teams in F1.

It brings up other thoughts, now we know why more top US drivers don't come to F1, we know why Bernie struggles to get teams involved when it is clear they must find the money through drivers to get on the grid and finally, I wonder how much Nigel Mansell made when he went Stateside?
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Old 8 Dec 2015, 16:05 (Ref:3596439)   #12
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i also have an issue with pay drivers. i respect that in motorsports a driver must be able to attract personal sponsors to make themselves more attractive but there is a difference in what the trend is now although im not sure i can say where exactly that line is.

i do think that if F1 wants to be the 'pinnacle' then this practice should not be allowed in F1. really there should be a minimum salary paid for by the teams irrespective of what type sponsorship a driver can bring in.

no doubt it would be difficult to monitor who got what/was it because of talent or commercial appeal/connections but for me its more of an appearance thing anyways and the hope that if a team has to pay then they will pick based only on perceived talent.

to be a professional sport and to be an professional athlete one must be paid by the team that they perform for. if the athlete is the one paying the team then they are not professional athletes and as such its not a professional sport.

i should add that i dont hold the same concerns for other categories as there is more of a blending between ownership and drivers with drivers often owning their own teams then there is in F1.
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Old 24 Jan 2016, 15:45 (Ref:3607625)   #13
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Am I the only one who believes that to an extent (certainly when looking at junior single seaters) that the question should not be 'does Formula 1 attract the best drivers?' but should instead be 'do the best drivers attract Formula 1?'

Look at the likes of Frijns, Magnussen, and now potentially Vandoorne over just the last couple of years.
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Old 25 Jan 2016, 17:32 (Ref:3607897)   #14
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thought provoking insights old man!

a couple of follow up questions.

i see your point that budgets are increasing in even the lower levels...in your estimation, is that translating into lower participation rates or are participation rates staying the same (or increasing even) despite the increasing costs?

if its staying the same are the younger categories becoming more competitive and if so, do you think that increased competition (coupled with increasing costs) is better for the fans (or for f1) in the long run?

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Am I the only one who believes that to an extent (certainly when looking at junior single seaters) that the question should not be 'does Formula 1 attract the best drivers?' but should instead be 'do the best drivers attract Formula 1?'
if up and coming drivers are finding there are equally or more attractive categories to earn respect and money in, does that suggest that motorsports overall is healthier now then in a past where F1 was seen as the ultimate place to achieve those goals?

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...So, just as we have seen golfers who wielded a club almost as soon as they could lift one...
going on a bit of a tangent that may be more applicable to some of the other threads but what golf is currently experiencing is rather similar to what F1/motorsports is experiencing...declining viewership for the pro levels in part due to a lack of perceived talent at the top level (no Tiger and a different winner every week) coupled with decreasing participation by younger/next generation because the costs of playing/training are prohibitively high. should note that for golf this is also being reflected with a decline in popular participation as the increasing costs are also being passed on to people who wish to participate only as hobbyist.

dont know what its like where you guys live but golf courses are closing down everywhere and the land converted into condo developments. surprising given its massive and growing popularity just a few years ago.

maybe these are just the inherent problems associated with any sports once thought of as sports for the rich and what we are seeing is just a natural backlash at their attempt to change that image to one which tries to redefine itself as being open to popular and or talent based involvement.

anyways i thought that golf is a very interesting analogy.

Last edited by chillibowl; 25 Jan 2016 at 17:37.
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Old 26 Jan 2016, 10:23 (Ref:3608073)   #15
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Interesting questions Chillibowl. Participation rates are, if anything dropping as we see it. The young drivers are now looking to move to cars a couple of years earlier and to move not to National series in the lower formulae but to European series. These obviously cost more because of the travel and UK based series are suffering a little, for example UK F3 that was at one time the best feeder series does not now exist, all concentration is on Euro in F3. German and Italian series may continue I believe but not sure of entry levels.

As I said in the opening comments in this thread, drivers no longer quote F1 as an ambition every time as they realise the overall investment required.

The level of competition in these classes is high and drivers always use a professional team, gone are the days of buying a car and towing it behind a van. The budget required for karting at the top junior level is not so much less than the budget for F4, certainly at National level and not that far removed from European series requirements. At a Euro round that I attended last year the top junior drivers had test days before the official sessions when drivers chose the chassis for the meeting from up to 6 karts, selecting a dry chassis and a wet chassis that suited the circuit.

Overall is it more healthy, no I don't think so because the reduction in age for participants in what is seen as "proper racing" means a driver that is not in F1 by 20 has failed. Many are accepting, as I have said above, that this is no longer possible and realise that to show well in single seaters may get them moves to saloons and sports categories where they feel the chances of a paid career are better. Budgets for these categories are lower and some national series have a high profile such as BTCC where a top drive can be bought for £200 to 400K, nothing like the budget for GP3, GP2 or FR 3.5.

To pick up your golf question, I am not a golfer so not really qualified to answer but my Rotary Club meets at a GC so I am a social member. The GC is struggling for members but, as i believe is generally the case in the UK, the club is owned by the members. A nearby member owned club did close a couple of years ago when the land was sold for development and the members all pocketed a nice sum. An equally nearby privately owned course is however doing OK I believe but people play on an "arrive and drive" basis (pardon the pun!)
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Old 26 Jan 2016, 12:12 (Ref:3608087)   #16
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Interesting questions Chillibowl. Participation rates are, if anything dropping as we see it. The young drivers are now looking to move to cars a couple of years earlier and to move not to National series in the lower formulae but to European series. These obviously cost more because of the travel and UK based series are suffering a little, for example UK F3 that was at one time the best feeder series does not now exist, all concentration is on Euro in F3. German and Italian series may continue I believe but not sure of entry levels.
this is being a bit nitpicky and missing the overall point, but it's more of a debate about where national competition is sufficient for learning stuff and where international competition becomes a good thing.

to me, it's kind of right now - f4 is and should only be national competition, if only because it's easier for the little sods to stay at school when they only have to go a couple of hours down the road.

f3 is a bit of a different one. offering a lower cost version where you can learn the cars on a national level ready for an international attempt the following year is a sound theory. but why bother when a bit more cash will get you a european campaign where you can learn the circuits you'll need for your second year against the relevant level of competition. in terms of value for money it can be better just to jump in, especially if you're a dad who thinks the sun shines out of juniors bottom

i don't know what's changed from 10, 15 years ago, but it has. cheap gp3 deals? the euroseries emerging from the german f3 series 12 or so years ago?
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Old 26 Jan 2016, 14:15 (Ref:3608122)   #17
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dont know what its like where you guys live but golf courses are closing down everywhere and the land converted into condo developments. surprising given its massive and growing popularity just a few years ago.

.
There's a golf course near me in Spain that's been up for sale/auction for a fair while and there have been no bids although it could be brought for £100k ! there is a little problem though with debts that come with it amounting to 2-3 million
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Old 24 Jan 2016, 17:32 (Ref:3607642)   #18
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I suspect Vandoorne will be in a McLaren in 2017. Either JB will retire or the Spaniard will flounce off. Whether being in a McLaren in 2017 is a good thing or not is another matter, however.
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Old 24 Jan 2016, 22:00 (Ref:3607736)   #19
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JABWOA should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I'm struggling to recall a good example, but there are drivers who are brilliant but not suited to F1 open wheeler.

Peter Brock once said the best driver in the world was probably a tractor driver in Siberia, but nobody is ever going to find him to find out.

However, talent alone will not get into F1. You need a backer, whether it's the Vettel/Hamilton route or Ericsson/Moldynado route.
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Old 24 Jan 2016, 22:34 (Ref:3607747)   #20
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Since it started F1 has always been a compromise between drivers with talent and drivers with money/connections.Every team over the years has made a choice at some time to take the money over the best driver going around.
Teams have lost championships because they had a pay driver who couldnt back up the number onee driver,drivers have lost championships becaue they had to play second fiddle to the money/connection driver.
If anything its got worse in recent times because the money involved is so obscene you need to have parents who own a country to get together the dollars to grease the palms that get you into F1.
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Old 25 Jan 2016, 10:21 (Ref:3607819)   #21
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I'm struggling to recall a good example, but there are drivers who are brilliant but not suited to F1 open wheeler.
Bernd Schneider springs to mind. Sublime in a touring car, blisteringly quick in the Mercedes CLK, but couldn't do much with a Zakspeed in F1.
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Old 25 Jan 2016, 10:24 (Ref:3607820)   #22
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Peter Brock once said the best driver in the world was probably a tractor driver in Siberia, but nobody is ever going to find him to find out.
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I think it was actually Jenks who said that the best driver could be a bus driver in China, but we would never know it if he didn't get the opportunity
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Old 25 Jan 2016, 08:56 (Ref:3607804)   #23
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Funny the discussion is kinda about McLaren. When it was McLaren Mercedes, the amount of drivers who were meant to get F1 seats but were never given proper chances was mad.

McMercs attitude seemed to be sign a lot of good drivers, then dump them in DTM and test driver roles so nobody else can use them.
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Old 25 Jan 2016, 16:00 (Ref:3607882)   #24
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
In all honesty Bernd was on a hiding to nothing, the engine was a boat anchor and the car though it looked amazing was not good, no-one did anything in Zakkers even decent pedallers like Brunders, Palmer or Ghinzani.
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Old 26 Jan 2016, 13:48 (Ref:3608115)   #25
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F1 Not Attracting Best Drivers = F1 NO MORE Pinnacle of Motorsport.
Hello Blancpain GT / LM as the new Pinnacle.
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