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Old 4 Mar 2017, 16:13 (Ref:3716459)   #1
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Branding

Now, I don't claim to be a marketing expert. But why don't car manufacturers who control multiple brands use F1 more effectively? Renault could, for example, have stipulated that Toro Rosso ran with Nissan on the engine cover; Haas could use Alfa Romeo-branded engines. It seems such a simple thing, but (as far as I know) it's never really been tried (I discount things like Sauber branding their engines as Petronas and so on). Thoughts?
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Old 4 Mar 2017, 17:21 (Ref:3716472)   #2
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My opinion is that most see through the facade. Such as the ridiculousness of the current Red Bull Tag Heuer engine. We all know it's a Renault. Tag Heuer makes watches not F1 engines. Even if badged as a Nissan, we know it's a Renault. The only exception in my opinion is if you brand them all the same. Such as VW has a slew of brands. They could assemble an engine design team from various parts of their empire or even outsource a full design and then decide to badge it as they like... Porsche, Audi, etc. Not that I believe that is how VW would do it, but I just use them as an example.

The other alternative would be if there was something different other than the name printed on the marketing material. For example if someone in the larger Fiat domain used the Ferrari engine as a basis and made their own unique version. But given the complexity of the engines today, that is an unlikely path.

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Old 4 Mar 2017, 17:39 (Ref:3716474)   #3
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Well, die-hard fans will see through the façade, of course (and anyone who posts on this forum is by definition a die-hard fan). But if the average punter will buy an Audi A3 believing it's different from a Volkswagen Golf, won't he or she perhaps be impressed if a Nissan-powered Toro Rosso does well in a Grand Prix?
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Old 4 Mar 2017, 18:15 (Ref:3716478)   #4
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is it an association issue?

RB is selling a product which for all intents and purposes is a premium energy drink so why would they want to associate themselves with a car make that is not considered premium?

STR is a bit different in that they seem to selling a 'RB lifestyle'/youthful image and i suspect driving around in a Nissan doesn't much match their dream of being 'cool'.

Infiniti made more sense but the issues between Renault and RB put an end to that.

or could it be a similar problem to the one teams had with tobacco liveries?

like cars, tobacco companies sell their products in different countries under different brand names and while certain brands were more recognizable in Country A vs Country B, F1 rules did not allow them to change their liveries for each country so they chose to opt for the more recognizable brand of the parent corporation?
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Old 4 Mar 2017, 22:47 (Ref:3716510)   #5
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But surely, by that logic, splitting your bets would make sense?
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Old 5 Mar 2017, 00:34 (Ref:3716527)   #6
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It's an interesting point. Even if you "see through the façade" surely you see that, say, Renault and Nissan share resource in their road cars so it is a legit association?
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Old 5 Mar 2017, 11:25 (Ref:3716641)   #7
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You then have to consider corporate representation on the podium. Would corporate Renault to keep the analogy going, want a Nissan or Renault logo on the drivers overalls on the podium.
Or worse, not being able to display the Renault logo, for the World Championship winning constructor that is powered by a Dacia branded Renault. Likewise not being able to have the coveted FIA World Chamionship logo on every Renault Tv or magazine advert.
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Old 5 Mar 2017, 11:55 (Ref:3716643)   #8
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My opinion is that most see through the facade. Such as the ridiculousness of the current Red Bull Tag Heuer engine. We all know it's a Renault. Tag Heuer makes watches not F1 engines. Even if badged as a Nissan, we know it's a Renault. The only exception in my opinion is if you brand them all the same. Such as VW has a slew of brands. They could assemble an engine design team from various parts of their empire or even outsource a full design and then decide to badge it as they like... Porsche, Audi, etc. Not that I believe that is how VW would do it, but I just use them as an example.

The other alternative would be if there was something different other than the name printed on the marketing material. For example if someone in the larger Fiat domain used the Ferrari engine as a basis and made their own unique version. But given the complexity of the engines today, that is an unlikely path.

Richard
We'd see through it, but the Renault isn't a Renault anyway - it's a Mecachrome. So whether it has a Renault, Nissan, Tag or whatever badge, it isn't built by any of them. So at that point, does it matter?

I don't know if the Mercedes engine is built by them. I assume Ferrari doesn't contract it out.
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Old 5 Mar 2017, 13:50 (Ref:3716657)   #9
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Mercedes engines are built at their Brixworth facility, aren't they?
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Old 5 Mar 2017, 14:12 (Ref:3716660)   #10
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Mercedes engines are built at their Brixworth facility, aren't they?
'Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains are based in Brixworth, Northamptonshire at the purpose-built Mercedes-Benz Technology Centre and we are all passionate about Power Units!

A team of over 500 people are responsible for the complete design, manufacture and testing of Formula 1 Power Units for our works team MERCEDES AMG PETRONAS as well as for Sahara Force India, Williams Martini Racing and Manor F1.

We are a wholly-owned subsidiary of Daimler AG, the inventor of the automobile, one of the biggest producers of premium cars and the world’s largest manufacturer of commercial vehicles.'
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Old 5 Mar 2017, 15:34 (Ref:3716677)   #11
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And, if I am not mistaken, used to be known as Ilmor until Mercedes bought them out.

And "branding" or "badging" power units silly, just as it would have been to badge the Mercedes unit as an Aston Martin which was being suggested as being on the cards for Force India.

Why? Does it really fool anyone?
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Old 5 Mar 2017, 15:48 (Ref:3716678)   #12
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I'm not sure that the loaded term "fool" is really appropriate, but if the casual observer saw a Toro Rosso driver on the podium with a Nissan patch on his overalls, he or she might think "Nissan = motorsports".
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Old 5 Mar 2017, 15:55 (Ref:3716683)   #13
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It does remind me how engines used to be rebranded when the manufacturer left, i.e. Megatron, Mugen, Mechachrome, Supertec, Playlife, Ilmor etc.
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Old 6 Mar 2017, 09:13 (Ref:3716807)   #14
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Well Red Bull did do it with Infiniti.

But the charade falls away for even casual fans when you watch the race and commentators say Renault, then Ted is chatting to people and talking about Red Bull's engine problem outside the Renault hospitality

It is basically pointless marketing, other than Nissan chucking Vettel in a few hopped up Nissans and trying to sell cars based on them winning a few races.

If you think back tot eh 80's people did really think the McLaren engine was a TAG, when we all knew it was a Porsche, but that charade was relatively successful I think.

You had PETRONAS calling a Ferrari engine, Playlife doing it with Renault, possibly the worst ever one!!

Red Bull do it to some extent by advertising different brands on their cars. But agreed, I think I saw ALfa badged on one car from testing?
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Old 6 Mar 2017, 09:58 (Ref:3716813)   #15
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Well Red Bull did do it with Infiniti.

But the charade falls away for even casual fans when you watch the race and commentators say Renault, then Ted is chatting to people and talking about Red Bull's engine problem outside the Renault hospitality

It is basically pointless marketing, other than Nissan chucking Vettel in a few hopped up Nissans and trying to sell cars based on them winning a few races.

If you think back tot eh 80's people did really think the McLaren engine was a TAG, when we all knew it was a Porsche, but that charade was relatively successful I think.

You had PETRONAS calling a Ferrari engine, Playlife doing it with Renault, possibly the worst ever one!!

Red Bull do it to some extent by advertising different brands on their cars. But agreed, I think I saw ALfa badged on one car from testing?
I do believe the Ferrari carried Alfa Romeo branding at some stage!
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Old 6 Mar 2017, 12:08 (Ref:3716833)   #16
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I do believe the Ferrari carried Alfa Romeo branding at some stage!

they still do


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Old 6 Mar 2017, 13:43 (Ref:3716856)   #17
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But the Alfa logos are, surely, just advertising, as there is now very little link between the two companies apart from Piero Ferrari's 10% personal shareholding.

Prior to the 2015 split from Fiat, there may have been some merit in the idea, but what is the point now?
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Old 6 Mar 2017, 14:20 (Ref:3716861)   #18
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But the Alfa logos are, surely, just advertising
Ferrari's website describes Alfa Romeo as a sponsor - so definitely not a branding exercise.
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Old 6 Mar 2017, 16:55 (Ref:3716880)   #19
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Well Red Bull did do it with Infiniti.
Not the same; they had Infiniti logos on the car but it was never a Red Bull-Infiniti.
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Old 6 Mar 2017, 16:59 (Ref:3716881)   #20
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But the Alfa logos are, surely, just advertising, as there is now very little link between the two companies apart from Piero Ferrari's 10% personal shareholding.

Prior to the 2015 split from Fiat, there may have been some merit in the idea, but what is the point now?
I thought Alfa was still owned by FCA? Sergio Marchionne has certainly been talking within the last few months about Alfa returning to F1.
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Old 6 Mar 2017, 17:27 (Ref:3716886)   #21
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I thought Alfa was still owned by FCA? Sergio Marchionne has certainly been talking within the last few months about Alfa returning to F1.
I did write it rather inelegantly. Whilst Alfa is still wholly owned by Fiat Chrysler, Ferrari is now totally independent from FCA apart from the minor details of Marchionne being still in charge of both entities and Piero Ferrari's shareholding.
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Old 6 Mar 2017, 18:29 (Ref:3716898)   #22
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Ah, right. It just strikes me that, if Marchionne wants Alfa to have an F1 presence, rebranding customer engines would be an easy way to do it.

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Old 6 Mar 2017, 19:39 (Ref:3716905)   #23
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but what is the benefit to a team that accepts an Alfa badge while forgoing the Ferrari badge?

take Haas for example...Alfa is making a big push in the US these days(heavy sponsorship during this years Super Bowl) so on the surface it would seem to be an easy and natural fit for FIAT.

but from Haas' point of view, would that sponsorship have helped or hurt them?

more money is of course more money but maybe they thought that having the Ferrari badge (a far more recognizable symbol) on their car gave the new team a level of exposure and credibility that they might not have otherwise created had they used the Alfa badge.

if i was starting a new team, paying a premium ti use the Ferrari badge exclusively might outweigh additional sponsorship revenues.

that said i would probably try to get both badges on my car and have the best of both worlds!
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Old 6 Mar 2017, 20:22 (Ref:3716914)   #24
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Regarding Haas, Ferrari and Alfa...

It seems that there is little link these days between Ferrari and Fiat (and then to Alfa) other than Marchionne and history given Fiat no longer owns Ferrari. Regarding the push by Alfa, I can't imagine an F1 sponsorship is a good way to spend money to increase US sales. I read that Alfa sales increased 843% in Feb 2017! That is because they only sold 47 cars in the US in Feb 2016. Its easy to make improvements like that when you are starting at ground zero from a sales perspective. The problem is that I just think most consumers in the US have no idea what F1 is (let alone watch it), so the advertising may have little impact.

But... for customers of a premium brand in the US it might. A potential Ferrari owner may know about F1 and the history of Ferrari within F1. I think Ferrari builds roughly 8k cars a year with around 25% sold in the US. So expect that is why you see the Ferrari name on the engine in the Haas. Maybe Fiat/Marchionne should have pushed for a US based, but Fiat owned name like "Jeep" to put on the engine cover!

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Old 6 Mar 2017, 22:58 (Ref:3716938)   #25
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Regarding Renault have TR rebrand their engine a Nissan...

You have to think that for Renault to be a "works" team, and for Nissan to be the engine in the back of the B team of a fizzy drinks manufacturer, you are effectively demoting the Nissan brand below the Renault one. Not sure that sends the right message.
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