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Old 25 Jan 2016, 16:00 (Ref:3607882)   #26
chunder
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
In all honesty Bernd was on a hiding to nothing, the engine was a boat anchor and the car though it looked amazing was not good, no-one did anything in Zakkers even decent pedallers like Brunders, Palmer or Ghinzani.
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Old 25 Jan 2016, 17:32 (Ref:3607897)   #27
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thought provoking insights old man!

a couple of follow up questions.

i see your point that budgets are increasing in even the lower levels...in your estimation, is that translating into lower participation rates or are participation rates staying the same (or increasing even) despite the increasing costs?

if its staying the same are the younger categories becoming more competitive and if so, do you think that increased competition (coupled with increasing costs) is better for the fans (or for f1) in the long run?

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Am I the only one who believes that to an extent (certainly when looking at junior single seaters) that the question should not be 'does Formula 1 attract the best drivers?' but should instead be 'do the best drivers attract Formula 1?'
if up and coming drivers are finding there are equally or more attractive categories to earn respect and money in, does that suggest that motorsports overall is healthier now then in a past where F1 was seen as the ultimate place to achieve those goals?

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...So, just as we have seen golfers who wielded a club almost as soon as they could lift one...
going on a bit of a tangent that may be more applicable to some of the other threads but what golf is currently experiencing is rather similar to what F1/motorsports is experiencing...declining viewership for the pro levels in part due to a lack of perceived talent at the top level (no Tiger and a different winner every week) coupled with decreasing participation by younger/next generation because the costs of playing/training are prohibitively high. should note that for golf this is also being reflected with a decline in popular participation as the increasing costs are also being passed on to people who wish to participate only as hobbyist.

dont know what its like where you guys live but golf courses are closing down everywhere and the land converted into condo developments. surprising given its massive and growing popularity just a few years ago.

maybe these are just the inherent problems associated with any sports once thought of as sports for the rich and what we are seeing is just a natural backlash at their attempt to change that image to one which tries to redefine itself as being open to popular and or talent based involvement.

anyways i thought that golf is a very interesting analogy.

Last edited by chillibowl; 25 Jan 2016 at 17:37.
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Old 26 Jan 2016, 10:23 (Ref:3608073)   #28
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Interesting questions Chillibowl. Participation rates are, if anything dropping as we see it. The young drivers are now looking to move to cars a couple of years earlier and to move not to National series in the lower formulae but to European series. These obviously cost more because of the travel and UK based series are suffering a little, for example UK F3 that was at one time the best feeder series does not now exist, all concentration is on Euro in F3. German and Italian series may continue I believe but not sure of entry levels.

As I said in the opening comments in this thread, drivers no longer quote F1 as an ambition every time as they realise the overall investment required.

The level of competition in these classes is high and drivers always use a professional team, gone are the days of buying a car and towing it behind a van. The budget required for karting at the top junior level is not so much less than the budget for F4, certainly at National level and not that far removed from European series requirements. At a Euro round that I attended last year the top junior drivers had test days before the official sessions when drivers chose the chassis for the meeting from up to 6 karts, selecting a dry chassis and a wet chassis that suited the circuit.

Overall is it more healthy, no I don't think so because the reduction in age for participants in what is seen as "proper racing" means a driver that is not in F1 by 20 has failed. Many are accepting, as I have said above, that this is no longer possible and realise that to show well in single seaters may get them moves to saloons and sports categories where they feel the chances of a paid career are better. Budgets for these categories are lower and some national series have a high profile such as BTCC where a top drive can be bought for £200 to 400K, nothing like the budget for GP3, GP2 or FR 3.5.

To pick up your golf question, I am not a golfer so not really qualified to answer but my Rotary Club meets at a GC so I am a social member. The GC is struggling for members but, as i believe is generally the case in the UK, the club is owned by the members. A nearby member owned club did close a couple of years ago when the land was sold for development and the members all pocketed a nice sum. An equally nearby privately owned course is however doing OK I believe but people play on an "arrive and drive" basis (pardon the pun!)
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Old 26 Jan 2016, 12:12 (Ref:3608087)   #29
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Interesting questions Chillibowl. Participation rates are, if anything dropping as we see it. The young drivers are now looking to move to cars a couple of years earlier and to move not to National series in the lower formulae but to European series. These obviously cost more because of the travel and UK based series are suffering a little, for example UK F3 that was at one time the best feeder series does not now exist, all concentration is on Euro in F3. German and Italian series may continue I believe but not sure of entry levels.
this is being a bit nitpicky and missing the overall point, but it's more of a debate about where national competition is sufficient for learning stuff and where international competition becomes a good thing.

to me, it's kind of right now - f4 is and should only be national competition, if only because it's easier for the little sods to stay at school when they only have to go a couple of hours down the road.

f3 is a bit of a different one. offering a lower cost version where you can learn the cars on a national level ready for an international attempt the following year is a sound theory. but why bother when a bit more cash will get you a european campaign where you can learn the circuits you'll need for your second year against the relevant level of competition. in terms of value for money it can be better just to jump in, especially if you're a dad who thinks the sun shines out of juniors bottom

i don't know what's changed from 10, 15 years ago, but it has. cheap gp3 deals? the euroseries emerging from the german f3 series 12 or so years ago?
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Old 26 Jan 2016, 13:48 (Ref:3608115)   #30
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F1 Not Attracting Best Drivers = F1 NO MORE Pinnacle of Motorsport.
Hello Blancpain GT / LM as the new Pinnacle.
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Old 26 Jan 2016, 14:15 (Ref:3608122)   #31
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dont know what its like where you guys live but golf courses are closing down everywhere and the land converted into condo developments. surprising given its massive and growing popularity just a few years ago.

.
There's a golf course near me in Spain that's been up for sale/auction for a fair while and there have been no bids although it could be brought for £100k ! there is a little problem though with debts that come with it amounting to 2-3 million
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Old 28 Jan 2016, 16:43 (Ref:3608727)   #32
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Not sure if this is the right place to post, but Autosport reports that Renault are on the verge of dropping Maldonado in favour of Kevin Magnussen, which would be a great example of F1 attracting the RIGHT kind of driver.
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Old 28 Jan 2016, 19:00 (Ref:3608781)   #33
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Not sure if this is the right place to post, but Autosport reports that Renault are on the verge of dropping Maldonado in favour of Kevin Magnussen, which would be a great example of F1 attracting the RIGHT kind of driver.
Quite right, Renault able to race without driver funding, at least on the Maldonado scale
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Old 28 Jan 2016, 19:03 (Ref:3608785)   #34
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Oh, and let's not forget he graduated through the Renault WS
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Old 29 Jan 2016, 12:31 (Ref:3609016)   #35
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he's also a product of formula 3 and reasonably proper formula ford (without wings), which makes him the last of the old school!
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Old 31 Jan 2016, 04:39 (Ref:3609764)   #36
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Quite right, Renault able to race without driver funding, at least on the Maldonado scale
Well, Maldy doesn't actually have the money atm, the Govt withheld some/all of it apparently - so anyone with in with a shot but glad it's someone with talent (and surely some backing.)
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Old 31 Jan 2016, 12:51 (Ref:3609922)   #37
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Maldonado has plenty talent he just hasn't been able to hone it in 4 years in F1. He seemed to go backwards rather than develop though.

Time to go.
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Old 31 Jan 2016, 21:02 (Ref:3610300)   #38
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He took a huge step forward in 2012 (although glorified alongside Bruno Senna) but I think combination of Bottas and Grosjean as teammates along with mediocre and temperamental chassis meant he couldn't do an awful lot noticeably. Autosports idea him having a breakout season is imo ludicrous, 2013 was that season. The fact he may have actually been able to look good against Palmer doesn't mean he would've been fantastic.

Magnussen is a much better driver.
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Old 1 Feb 2016, 11:04 (Ref:3610468)   #39
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Now we have 16 year old Nikita Mazepin into "development role" at Force India. I suppose we could say this is similar to the Hamilton role with McLaren years ago or the Red Bull school but I suspect it has more to do with finance?

The Autosport piece does not say if Force India are paying for his racing in the Euro F3 series but one suspects not!

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Old 1 Feb 2016, 11:15 (Ref:3610474)   #40
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mr mazepim snr is a very wealthy man. i would imagine force india aren't the ones getting their chequebooks out

what's the harm? it's paying people's wages, it's a "job" that wouldn't have existed otherwise, he's not doing any less privileged drivers out of work.

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Old 6 Feb 2016, 11:58 (Ref:3612342)   #41
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This is a motorsportmagazine podcast featuring an interview with Tom Kristensen, in it he goes into the reasons that he did not go into F1 and the need for young drivers to pursue different forms of motorsport if they are seeking a career.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/ra...ensen-podcast/
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Old 6 Feb 2016, 14:36 (Ref:3612371)   #42
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TK is probably the most glaring omission from F1 of the past twenty years. Easily - easily - good enough to have prospered, but never got the chance. Still, he did all right for himself.
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Old 7 Feb 2016, 14:42 (Ref:3612783)   #43
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This is a motorsportmagazine podcast featuring an interview with Tom Kristensen, in it he goes into the reasons that he did not go into F1 and the need for young drivers to pursue different forms of motorsport if they are seeking a career.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/ra...ensen-podcast/
Thanks for this link, excellent with some views I and my connections can TOTALLY agree with and have promoted for some time now. Good to hear them from such a respected person
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Old 10 Feb 2016, 21:15 (Ref:3613806)   #44
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Thanks for this link, excellent with some views I and my connections can TOTALLY agree with and have promoted for some time now. Good to hear them from such a respected person
Glad it was useful.

This one is a bit of a frightener.

Sorensen complaining that he was ditched as 3rd driver for Jorda who is 12 sec a lap slower in the simulator!

http://www.pitpass.com/55464/Sorensen-hits-out-at-Jorda
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Old 10 Feb 2016, 21:32 (Ref:3613811)   #45
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Glad it was useful.

This one is a bit of a frightener.

Sorensen complaining that he was ditched as 3rd driver for Jorda who is 12 sec a lap slower in the simulator!

http://www.pitpass.com/55464/Sorensen-hits-out-at-Jorda
Obviously the two have great respect for each other (not)! This is the response from Jorda, http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/jo...ns-672648/?s=1 , who thinks that Sorensen should spend more time brushing up his own career.

There is usually two sides to all these tales, and it will only be the team that will be able to confirm or deny either of their claims, and I very much doubt that they will, officially anyway.
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Old 10 Feb 2016, 23:07 (Ref:3613833)   #46
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i liked richie stanaway's response to her tbh. "if you didn't finish last in every gp3 race people would not make jokes". blunt but completely true.

marco's a great driver, and undoubtably far more able than she is. she's gonna need to raise her game if her best response is to tell him to mind his own business. i'm sure renault/lotus could furnish her with some evidence to make her point if she asked nicely.

it's pretty undignified for everyone though.
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Old 10 Feb 2016, 23:55 (Ref:3613844)   #47
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i liked richie stanaway's response to her tbh. "if you didn't finish last in every gp3 race people would not make jokes". blunt but completely true.

marco's a great driver, and undoubtably far more able than she is. she's gonna need to raise her game if her best response is to tell him to mind his own business. i'm sure renault/lotus could furnish her with some evidence to make her point if she asked nicely.

it's pretty undignified for everyone though.
I usually agree with your posts, but I disagree about Stanaway.
I thought his comment was uncalled for and completely lacking in class.
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Old 10 Feb 2016, 23:57 (Ref:3613845)   #48
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Once again a clear illustration that talent is a firm lesser consideration to money or 'partnership' potential in F1 nowadays even in bigger teams than back markers.
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Old 11 Feb 2016, 00:31 (Ref:3613852)   #49
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I usually agree with your posts, but I disagree about Stanaway.
I thought his comment was uncalled for and completely lacking in class.
but it's presumably ok when drivers mock maldonado?

like i said before, the whole thing is very undignified, but on the other hand people want drivers to be more like real people, and then when they are, it's the worst thing ever? and it's the truth. if she wasn't last all the time then people would be far less critical. as it is, she was.

i'm obviously pro-women in motorsport but with equality comes taking criticism that would be directed at a man in the same position, you can't play the woman card. you either smile sweetly and ignore it completely, or you serve so much tea the guy won't know what's hit him.
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Old 11 Feb 2016, 00:54 (Ref:3613856)   #50
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Stanaway was only stating the bleeding obvious.....3 seasons in GP3 and all zeros in the results column...

Theres hope for my F1 career yet if thats the sort of ability you need to get into F1.
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