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Old 11 Feb 2016, 01:00 (Ref:3613858)   #51
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Theres hope for my F1 career yet if thats the sort of ability you need to get into F1.
same. in fact, most, if not all of us haven't scored a point in gp3. some might even take a really cute selfie. where's our simulator jobs?

meanwhile in wec, good luck trying to get a porsche/audi/toyota lmp1 test, let alone a go in one in angry mode...
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Old 18 Feb 2016, 09:28 (Ref:3615674)   #52
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Once again a clear illustration that talent is a firm lesser consideration to money or 'partnership' potential in F1 nowadays even in bigger teams than back markers.
Ironically Fangio himself is a clear example of money, business and political partnership... His very first Grand Prix races in Europe were backed by Peron Goverment. His talent was confirmed only when he signed up with Alfa Romeo in 1950. But his Government ties were still in... He was heavily involved in the income of Mercedes-Benz into South American market in 1951, when Germany was desperately need for markets after the WWII disaster for them... Was not casual that Fangio, and not a German driver like Kling, was the unconditional #1 of the German marque, and after his racing retirement, Fangio was the Presidente of Argentine subsidiary of Mercedes-Benz for years, almost decades. Fangio also paid his relation to Peron Government when it fall to a military coup, with their goods interdicted; Fangio planned to retire in 1955 but still has to race to "save his goods from embargo" in 1956 and 1957. It was not casual he retired in 1958, not only because his era was gone, but also because a democratic regime entered in Argentina, by the name of Frondizi... All of that is not casual, in the eras.
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Old 18 Feb 2016, 09:57 (Ref:3615686)   #53
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Very interesting insight Mekola, thanks for that

We have another example of National interest helping a driver now that Haryonto has signed for Manor.
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Old 18 Feb 2016, 13:24 (Ref:3615729)   #54
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So the grid is complete. I know that we don't have the "best" drivers in the world but actually I think this may be one of the best in recent years.

The perceived worst drivers are all either F3/GP3 champions or race winners in GP2/FR3.5 level. I know that some have spent some years in the formula but you do not win races in these championships without some talent. people complain about drivers buying a seat in F1 or having their career paid for up to this level but as many have said this is nothing new. Many drivers have got to F1 because of money/nationality/gender. Jorda is a great example of someone getting it because of something other than talent but in reality who cares? we know that a lot of these "development" roles are somewhat meaningless and are more publicity than anything else but people seem to take more offence in the last few years. I wonder what has changed? If Jorda brings money and sponsorship to the team and brings the opportunities for more people to be employed then what is the problem, she will do some PR work and maybe some token bits in the sim but we know that most of the useful development will be done by race drivers or Ocon. For certain we can say that she (and many many more) will never get paid for their driving ability in the team and rightly so but again what's new about that?
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Old 18 Feb 2016, 15:24 (Ref:3615748)   #55
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agree with a lot of that, dave.

we all have favourites, and we're all going to judge their unfortunate circumstances more favourably than someone we don't have as much support for.

i think you have to view it from the inside out sometimes. often, the guys who carry their countrys support are from places where carrying the flag *really* means something, and that translates into a very similar type of pressure as someone who is aware of how much their parents have had to sacrifice over the years for them to be able to race.

regarding jorda, your gender can sometimes be a positive thing that you can use to your advantage or it can be a negative one. whenever you sense that it's an advantage you have to exploit it as much as you can to make up for the times when you lose out. but you have to be aware that depending on exactly what you're doing, using your gender as a positive force is going to wind a lot of people up. usually the opposite gender. it's a balance. the people who have got it wrong, imo, are the tv producers pandering to the need to perv at a pretty lady. unless of course, they balance it out with the same kind of male objectification.

imo, the above also applies to wealth and background, particularly in western culture. there's not a great deal more frustrating to the average person than ostentatious displays of wealth from the 1% (or whatever society calls rich people nowadays), even if we can't help but eye it enviously, and secretly aspire to be able to do the same.
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Old 18 Feb 2016, 16:40 (Ref:3615768)   #56
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Clearly, government money has eased Haryanto's path into F1. I'm willing to suspend judgement; the guy was a race-winner in GP2 and clearly has some talent. Now's his chance to prove himself against Wehrlein.
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Old 18 Feb 2016, 18:47 (Ref:3615790)   #57
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but it's presumably ok when drivers mock maldonado?

like i said before, the whole thing is very undignified, but on the other hand people want drivers to be more like real people, and then when they are, it's the worst thing ever? and it's the truth. if she wasn't last all the time then people would be far less critical. as it is, she was.

i'm obviously pro-women in motorsport but with equality comes taking criticism that would be directed at a man in the same position, you can't play the woman card. you either smile sweetly and ignore it completely, or you serve so much tea the guy won't know what's hit him.
You can presume that if you like, but again I'd completely disagree with you.
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Old 6 Mar 2016, 00:08 (Ref:3620340)   #58
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This was an interesting comparison by Haas:

Kurt Busch is very keen to drive a Formula 1 car and I know Romain is interested in the stock car so it would be interesting to work out a swap. The talent these guys have mean that they could do it, I think Kurt Busch could drive the Formula 1 well, and Romain in NASCAR. I think it might be easier for Kurt though, the thing about stockcars is that they are not very good cars, they are hard to drive, the are very heavy, the power level is the same but there is not much downforce. You need a mentality to be able to drive in those packs, the F1 guys are used to driving round by themselves and trying not to hit someone. In Cup you are almost mandated to hit someone (Haas points out that is a joke, “it is not mandatory just extremely likely!”).”

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...-nascar-vs-f1/
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Old 9 Mar 2016, 11:29 (Ref:3621510)   #59
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Off topic but adding to the Gene Haas comments I think the average European fan under estimates how hard it is to drive and succeed in NASCAR, ask Montoya what it was like. Lapping at those speeds in the packs that they do with all the problems of disturbed air etc must take a huge amount of nerve and many brave pills if you ask me. Doing sub 15 second laps at Bristol for instance all race long is just mind boggling.
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Old 9 Mar 2016, 14:24 (Ref:3621564)   #60
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It's striking how few "outsiders" make it in NASCAR, with the occasional exceptions of some road course ringers. It's clearly a very specialised set of skills.
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Old 9 Mar 2016, 14:46 (Ref:3621567)   #61
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Off topic but adding to the Gene Haas comments I think the average European fan under estimates how hard it is to drive and succeed in NASCAR, ask Montoya what it was like. Lapping at those speeds in the packs that they do with all the problems of disturbed air etc must take a huge amount of nerve and many brave pills if you ask me. Doing sub 15 second laps at Bristol for instance all race long is just mind boggling.
I did 8 laps driving a former Camping World Series car at Rockingham (Corby, not Carolina!) a couple of years ago. Even rev limited I realised the moment I gunned it out of the pits that there's a lot more to hustling them quickly than meets the eye.

It definitely isn't as simple as 'turn left', I can assure you of that - they don't half move around when you put the power down, and not always where you might expect!

Still, I got a couple of laps in under a minute. Not bad when you consider the track record is 24.719 seconds
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Old 9 Mar 2016, 22:35 (Ref:3621713)   #62
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I did 8 laps driving a former Camping World Series car at Rockingham (Corby, not Carolina!) a couple of years ago. Even rev limited I realised the moment I gunned it out of the pits that there's a lot more to hustling them quickly than meets the eye.

It definitely isn't as simple as 'turn left', I can assure you of that - they don't half move around when you put the power down, and not always where you might expect!

Still, I got a couple of laps in under a minute. Not bad when you consider the track record is 24.719 seconds
Glad you experienced one, I think they move around so much because the aero is pretty well non existent, and the buffeting is considerable in a pack situation.

The vision of the track ahead is also pathetic on a banked corner, every corner has a different camber, there are 3 adjacent racing lines, all the corners are taken flat out with the car floating on the limit with no run off room, the walls are hard and the traffic full on.

Easy really!
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Old 10 Mar 2016, 10:01 (Ref:3621808)   #63
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I think that "ordinary mortals" have really little concept of the skill levels at the top of any class and speaking personally, having the ability to judge the value in lap time of, say, aero changes that find a few tents through certain corners is something I cant't get my head round.

Balance is what it is all about I am told, "it just comes" say drivers who started racing just out of potty training. We get blasé when comparing times to 3 decimal places, we point out that a driver is way off pace if he is more than half a second off target, try measuring that on the stopwatch on your phone!

When I got down to an 11+ at Croft in my Mallock I was chuffed, Geoff Friswell then did an 8! 😟
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Old 10 Mar 2016, 13:21 (Ref:3621851)   #64
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 13:03 (Ref:3690201)   #65
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Bringing back an old thread as, with the "off season" approaching we need something to talk about I am tempted again by the thought that the finance required for a driver to get a seat in F1 is keeping some of the best drivers out of F1.

Recent statements by DTM drivers that the fully professional nature of that series is preferable to the free market of F1 prompt the thought. The DTM is arguably the best series outside F1, certainly the best touring car series and on a much smaller scale the BTCC is certainly the biggest and best UK series but a championship contender who lost out in the last race has just walked away. It strikes me that this may be because, as he is known to have access to a big budget, the teams expect him to pay that, no recognition of achievement.

Does the same apply in F1 to say Palmer who is known to have access to big money and so will be paying the same this year as last? Granted he did not give the championship scorer any problems this year but do the pay drivers ever progress or are they always expected to pay the same?

The dream of backers that help a driver through the lower ranks is that when they get to F1 their talent will will show and budget requirements decrease, is this ever likely to be the case or is it that once they are seen to have budget it will always be required?
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 13:05 (Ref:3690202)   #66
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Just because you bring a budget, it doesn't mean that you don't get paid.

And, arguably, you are in a stronger situation as you bring the whole package - driving ability and sponsorship.

I realise the driving ability bit is often questioned..
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 13:14 (Ref:3690205)   #67
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Would you count Perez as a "pay driver"? He brings massive sponsorship, and yet performed well enough to be picked up by McLaren.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 13:16 (Ref:3690206)   #68
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Would you count Perez as a "pay driver"? He brings massive sponsorship, and yet performed well enough to be picked up by McLaren.
When you drill down into it there are very few drivers who don't bring something in sponsorship or funding, multiple world champions included.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 14:08 (Ref:3690215)   #69
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When you drill down into it there are very few drivers who don't bring something in sponsorship or funding, multiple world champions included.
Yeah, I agree. I started writing a longer response, but eventually came to the same conclusion. Just for example, I'm sure that Alonso brought sponsorship when he joined Minardi.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 14:19 (Ref:3690221)   #70
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Would you count Perez as a "pay driver"? He brings massive sponsorship, and yet performed well enough to be picked up by McLaren.
If we knew the terms then this may illustrate my point, obviously all drivers start out paying but in the hope that as time goes by their ability shows and the paying hopefully becomes secondary to ability. This may be the case with Perez but I fear that many teams in F1 and other top series take the view that drivers will always pay and the more they are seen to be able to do so, the more they will be expected to do so.

I agree that just because a driver pays his way does not mean he has no ability, I just think we may lose some of the best because teams have lost the will to vigorously seek team sponsors.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 14:56 (Ref:3690227)   #71
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If we knew the terms then this may illustrate my point, obviously all drivers start out paying but in the hope that as time goes by their ability shows and the paying hopefully becomes secondary to ability. This may be the case with Perez but I fear that many teams in F1 and other top series take the view that drivers will always pay and the more they are seen to be able to do so, the more they will be expected to do so.

I agree that just because a driver pays his way does not mean he has no ability, I just think we may lose some of the best because teams have lost the will to vigorously seek team sponsors.
i think the best way to view it is that someone, somewhere has to pay for someone to race. it's just a matter of exactly who that someone is, and how committed they are to a drivers talent and ability to deliver.

it can be a dad (see: stroll, palmer), it can be a team (see: vandoorne), it can be a manufacturer (see: ocon, wehrlein). if a f1 team is 100% committed to a driver they will ensure they create the opportunity for him, whoever they have to throw under the bus on the way. if sauber came across a heroic, biblical talent you bet they'd find a way of putting him in a f1 car (and a watertight contract ) somehow.

anyone can open a door and be presented with an opportunity. some drivers are offered the same opportunity for a smaller contribution than others. the guys who can afford it will be offered a higher price. it's as simple as that. often the guy who can afford it will be indirectly subsidising someone who can't.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 16:09 (Ref:3690245)   #72
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And you also have to factor in drivers such as Michael Schumacher whose retainer (around the $25 million mark) at Ferrari was paid by Philip Morris (Marlboro), and Alonso whose retainer has been paid by Honda whilst he has been back at McLaren.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 16:44 (Ref:3690254)   #73
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but thats not really old man's point though is it?

if i am understanding his post correctly:

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Recent statements by DTM drivers that the fully professional nature of that series is preferable to the free market of F1 prompt the thought. The DTM is arguably the best series outside F1, certainly the best touring car series and on a much smaller scale the BTCC is certainly the biggest and best UK series but a championship contender who lost out in the last race has just walked away. It strikes me that this may be because, as he is known to have access to a big budget, the teams expect him to pay that, no recognition of achievement.
he is, i think, saying that once a driver brings money they will always be expected to bring money despite of their level of success.

he saying that at some point it needs to become a meritocracy...at some point success on track should translate in a driver having to find less money on their own and the team assuming the responsibility of finding money based on their contracted driver and teams successes.

its motor sports in an industrial setting so using a 'means of production' type analogy seems fitting...but expecting a driver to bring their own money is a bit like saying that the factory workers should have to pay the factory owners for the privilege of working in the factory.

perhaps justifiable in the lower categories but as one progresses up the ladder it makes far less sense imo.
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Old 22 Nov 2016, 17:24 (Ref:3690271)   #74
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Thanks Chili, you catch my drift very well

A successful driver with good backing going back to the same team is asked for the same money and rather thinks he may get some merit discount. Other teams quote similar terms. A case of geese and golden eggs

I think the DTM is more attractive to certain drivers when this sort of thing applies

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Old 22 Nov 2016, 17:45 (Ref:3690279)   #75
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I think any driver who says he'd rather be paid to race in the DTM than pay to race in Formula 1 (assuming the funds were available) is lying.
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