2018 TCR UK

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

The thing that irks me the most is penalties being handed out, only to be rescinded post-race.

If the race director/stewards can't back themselves to hand out a fair penalty that sticks, or utilise a framework of penalties for various scenarios consistently, then what's the point of it all?

A bloke gets to stand on the podium, accepts a trophy, sprays the bubbly, ten minutes later he's been relagated back to 4th or whatever, because the officials have back-flipped on a penalty they've handed out mid-race.

Not really surprised the entries are slipping.

During a race the role of the Race Director is held by a licenced MSA Clerk of the Course (unless it's an overseas series in which case it may be an overseas official). Not many of them call themselves race directors.

Penalties during races are applied as per the MSA Blue Book *or* series regulations - SRs take precedence, more often than not.
Penalties can be referred by the clerk to the stewards, who sit elsewhere and don't have all the radio chitchat to listen to. Teams/drivers can challenge a decision direct to the clerk, or ask for referral and can then further appeal to the stewards (for which a fee is levied). They can also appeal to the MSA national court - and stewards can refer serious cases to the court too.

I've no idea what's been going on with TCR UK in race control, but the rapid u-turns on some penalties strike me as rather unusual. The only reason, in my limited experience, is that evidence surfaces (from us lot trackside or from CCTV or in car footage) that contradicts or clarifies something reported earlier.

Unfortunately right now I can't find a list of judgements/adjustments for TCR UK. What's been the common thing for time penalties, track limits, pit lane speed, contact or something eise?

[Nononsensecapeesh]

The series is wasting its potential with such inconsistencies and disorganisation

[Alfisti]

Organised chaos I think; it all seems very poor.

Whether Ash Sutton expected to blitz the weekend I don't know, but once again he's shown he's a massive talent. I can see him in DTM, Aussie Supercars, WEC... his talent is way bigger than BTCC.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by Greem

During a race the role of the Race Director is held by a licenced MSA Clerk of the Course (unless it's an overseas series in which case it may be an overseas official). Not many of them call themselves race directors.

Penalties during races are applied as per the MSA Blue Book *or* series regulations - SRs take precedence, more often than not.
Penalties can be referred by the clerk to the stewards, who sit elsewhere and don't have all the radio chitchat to listen to. Teams/drivers can challenge a decision direct to the clerk, or ask for referral and can then further appeal to the stewards (for which a fee is levied). They can also appeal to the MSA national court - and stewards can refer serious cases to the court too.

I've no idea what's been going on with TCR UK in race control, but the rapid u-turns on some penalties strike me as rather unusual. The only reason, in my limited experience, is that evidence surfaces (from us lot trackside or from CCTV or in car footage) that contradicts or clarifies something reported earlier.

Unfortunately right now I can't find a list of judgements/adjustments for TCR UK. What's been the common thing for time penalties, track limits, pit lane speed, contact or something eise?

Thanks for the input.

Perhaps there's not enough manpower, or a position in the hierarchy at these kinds of race meetings to have someone sit and watch the live stream and be able to see the incidents as they happen, to detirmine a breach and which penalty to apply to it?

[BobJones]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Organised chaos I think; it all seems very poor.

Whether Ash Sutton expected to blitz the weekend I don't know, but once again he's shown he's a massive talent. I can see him in DTM, Aussie Supercars, WEC... his talent is way bigger than BTCC.

I hope Walkinshaw Andretti United Autosport Boost Mobile Mobil 1 HSV Racing Team Motorsport give him an enduro drive for 2019 – provided no date clashes – or ditch Courtney altogether.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Thanks for the input.

Perhaps there's not enough manpower, or a position in the hierarchy at these kinds of race meetings to have someone sit and watch the live stream and be able to see the incidents as they happen, to detirmine a breach and which penalty to apply to it?

I've found a few - one for Moffat earlier in the year at Silverstone where there was no black+white warning flag shown for repeated track limits breaches before being given a 5s time penalty (so procedural); one for Swift at Castle Combe again for track limits which was rescinded after a challenge from the team; one for Palmer at Oulton for being out of position at the start.

I can't offer a judgement - it wouldn't be appropriate, really, as I've not been involved - but it does appear that running a club series with aspirations of something bigger brings with it money, and money brings big teams, and big teams bring people who aren't willing to shrug and take it like happens in club racing. Perhaps there are just more challenges to penalties in TCR UK as a result, and the small grids mean they're more significant?

Having spent rather a lot of time calling track limits at club, national & international level this last few years I can well understand the frustration (on all parts) when a penalty is levied and then rescinded. Happily my calls don't get trodden on very often!

For reference I made almost 650 calls over the Blancpain GT weekend at Silverstone but there were quite a number of competitors who got drive-throughs as a result...

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Greem

Having spent rather a lot of time calling track limits at club, national & international level this last few years I can well understand the frustration (on all parts) when a penalty is levied and then rescinded. Happily my calls don't get trodden on very often!

At the Silverstone round I don't remember many cars being within track limits at Copse, so you'd probably have had to send them all to the back which defeats the point somewhat.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Woolley

At the Silverstone round I don't remember many cars being within track limits at Copse, so you'd probably have had to send them all to the back which defeats the point somewhat.

I was at Brooklands, so they got away with it!

Still, the subject of circuit design, safety, run-off and track limits is for a different thread altogether...

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Greem

I was at Brooklands, so they got away with it!

Still, the subject of circuit design, safety, run-off and track limits is for a different thread altogether...

Yep, bring back grass and gravel.

[redshoes]

It's not just track limit penalties that are being changed. Lets not forget the chaos at Knockhill when the poor marshals were left to re-position the entire grid following a last second reversal of a qualifying penalty.

[Alfisti]

Dan Lloyd quite open at the moment about being close to, but not having, budget to run at Croft.

Would be a real shame if he missed out on the title - he has walked this, with the exception of Ash Sutton beating everyone at Oulton.

[medius]

Maximum are advertising a TCR UK drive in a Leon (Lines' pictured) for Croft, so I guess it's safe to assume Stewart won't be driving there. Heavy damage for Swift and Gilmour might see those guys sat out too. Wilson too if he hasn't sorted the parts supply issue which kept him out of Oulton.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by medius

Wilson too if he hasn't sorted the parts supply issue which kept him out of Oulton.

That's an odd one - I thought one of the advantages of TCR was that parts were pretty much "off the shelf" as they're all customer cars.

[Umai Naa]

Perhaps the parts will become available if the money is there to buy them?

Mr Swift's car was apparently not heavily damaged, whilst the Alfa was all but written off.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Perhaps the parts will become available if the money is there to buy them?

That's probably a more realistic assessment. "parts supply problem" = "money supply problem"

[S griffin]

So how many cars can we realistically expect in the next round?

[Alfisti]

I think we're in single figure territory here; I'm assuming Dan Lloyd is present (he is very actively working on it!) but the other two West Coast cars are not going to be.

Stewart Lines car won't be unless someone has budget.

One of the Alfas is in need of mega money apparently and unlikely to be ready anyway even if a wheelbarrow full of cash is coming over the horizon.

BMR are gone for this year (maybe back next?)

9???

[Umai Naa]

Another Cupra is said to be entering the championship this season, according to chat on social media.

[Evantra]

Looks like Max Coates in a Cupra:

https://twitter.com/maxcoatesracing/...199905280?s=21

[Umai Naa]

So that makes two potentially additional cars.

[aland]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

One of the Alfas is in need of mega money apparently and unlikely to be ready anyway even if a wheelbarrow full of cash is coming over the horizon.
?

was chatting to derek palmer snr at btcc (was unloading his baby the supertourer primera), the cars are owned by alfa romeo and are incredibly fragile, they make the GPRM suspension parts on a ngtc car look tough also the only place that can do engine work is italy. he is regretting getting involved due to the spiralling costs and pathetic reliability

[Alfisti]

They're way underdeveloped compared to say the VAG Group TCR cars; they are poor across all TCR series I know of.

Considering the idea of the TCR Alfas was to promote the Alfa brand to help shift their new model road cars these things unfortunately bring back all the cliches! The road going Giulietta isn't bad at all reliability wise.

[auroan]

The big difference is the VAG group cars are done in house and have a big engineering division behind then (SEAT Sport). The Alfa stuff is done by Romeo ferraris (a tuning company who happen to race) and development was/is on a shoe string

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by auroan

The big difference is the VAG group cars are done in house and have a big engineering division behind then (SEAT Sport). The Alfa stuff is done by Romeo ferraris (a tuning company who happen to race) and development was/is on a shoe string

Maybe Sauber need to get involved? (joke).

[Umai Naa]

Only have to look at Vukovic and the Renault to see that Hyundai, VAG or Honda are the better choice.