Masters Announce more rev limits plus.....

[Mike Bell]

Masters HR already regulate the rev limits in Historic F1, World Sportscar Masters and V8 engines in Pre ‘66 Touring Cars, but for 2018 the last category will now have rev limits across the board. For over 3 litre engines, 7000rpm, smaller units 8000rpm. As with WSM, MSD 6AL ignition control units will be required to be fitted, and apparently will be sealed. Not clear as to how the rev limit is checked however.....

To help competitors with the extra expense, DT will supply the MSD units at 15% discount, and Masters will match this in the form of a credit against race entry costs. The 2018 regulations are now available on Masters website- http://www.mastershistoricracing.com/championships/

Will be interesting to see if the performance of smaller engined cars is affected, but it’s suggested that the emphasis is on controlling build and rebuild costs.

Peter Auto have also introduced rev limits for Classic Endurance Racing entries, using the same control unit, plus a limit of 2 engines per season (sealed), so there appears to be a theme......

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Masters HR already regulate the rev limits in Historic F1, World Sportscar Masters and V8 engines in Pre ‘66 Touring Cars, but for 2018 the last category will now have rev limits across the board. For over 3 litre engines, 7000rpm, smaller units 8000rpm. As with WSM, MSD 6AL ignition control units will be required to be fitted, and apparently will be sealed. Not clear as to how the rev limit is checked however.....

To help competitors with the extra expense, DT will supply the MSD units at 15% discount, and Masters will match this in the form of a credit against race entry costs. The 2018 regulations are now available on Masters website- http://www.mastershistoricracing.com/championships/

Will be interesting to see if the performance of smaller engined cars is affected, but it’s suggested that the emphasis is on controlling build and rebuild costs.

Peter Auto have also introduced rev limits for Classic Endurance Racing entries, using the same control unit, plus a limit of 2 engines per season (sealed), so there appears to be a theme......

Is that 2 engines per season per car or two engines per season per driver? (Or per driver per car?)

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by grantp

Is that 2 engines per season per car or two engines per season per driver? (Or per driver per car?)

The first. Two engines per car per season....

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

The first. Two engines per car per season....

So the spot price value of the car, potentially, falls as the season passes and it uses up its "engine allowance" for the year?

Does a car that starts the year with last year's engine still have 2 engines in hand or does what planned life is left in last year's engine count as one engine for this year?

I would have thought that economics (for the maintainers perhaps, rather than the owners but still ....) would suggest not a limit per se but a penalty for exceeding the limit. Effectively an "indulgence" payment whether financial, points (in the championship rounds) or grid/laps penalty.

Ditto rev limits.

There must come a point where for technical reasons it would be better to simply record engine revs and penalise excess in some way without compromising existing build regulations and older technology.

All of that said one has to wonder why these sorts of rules are found to be necessary in a hobby sport mainly supported by enthusiasts.

[Gerard C]

Right Mike, not only CER but HTC too.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Right Mike, not only CER but HTC too.

Yes, for HTC also. I was only thinking CER as had just been sent pics of the new FVC for the B19. Too pretty to shove in a motor car, even a pretty one......

[zefarelly]

That would certainly affect U2TC cars if it were introduced.

most of them don't do anything until they get above 7000 now.

[Gerard C]

As to HTC dont think it will really affect anyone. Some using 2 machines, will be allowed 4 engines! And they dont specify if refurbishing is also concerned. As suggested by Mike, how will the MSD pack will cope with points and condenser systems? Does the appendix K allows rev limiters for all categories? May be the end of this old rule?

[356sc]

The 2 engine per season ruling....I wonder how they are going to enforce this?

I presume they have bought it in to stop the Quali spec and race spec engines, and/or new engine every event, but won’t it clobber those honest folk who have chronic bad luck and there single engine has to be rebuilt more than once during the season.....are they really going to be turned away from events?


I am pretty sure appx k states you can’t use rev limiters too.....

Confused of Camberley!

[Everilda]

App K
6.5.2 An electronic rev limiter may be used from Period F onwards.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

That would certainly affect U2TC cars if it were introduced. most of them don't do anything until they get above 7000 now.

Yes, but.... Will a Louts twincam be more compromised than a BMW Tisa? Will a Mini be more compromised than an Alfa by the rev limit?

Originally Posted by grantp

So the spot price value of the car, potentially, falls as the season passes and it uses up its "engine allowance" for the year?

Does a car that starts the year with last year's engine still have 2 engines in hand or does what planned life is left in last year's engine count as one engine for this year?

This is copied from CER regs, but doesn't answer all the questions posted above..... "Engines are limited to two for the season. A sealing and identification of each engine will be made at the beginning and throughout the season. Checks will be made to make sure the rule is enforced. Any competitor failing to stay within the rule will see 40 points taken off the season classification as a penalty. Teams shall drill screws and nuts which removal is necessary during an engine rebuilt (see picture). Car should be presented with the lead seal fitted during the first participation of the season or the first race after the engine rebuilt or replacement."

Originally Posted by grantp

All of that said one has to wonder why these sorts of rules are found to be necessary in a hobby sport mainly supported by enthusiasts.

Err, you're forgetting the 'Arms Race'............

[Gerard C]

I dont think it will affect the true enthusiasts who are limited by their wallet or common sense!
Not the same effect on all categories though, U2TC as you say and really small displacement like 1.3 litre or less.
There are two different classic racing worlds, one for the pros and another for the amateurs/ enthusiasts. I can't see any inconvenient to that, was already the case in period.

[Mike Bell]

I didn't look close enough at the Masters rev limit initiative! It is being applied to some of the Gentleman Drivers Grid as well. Quoted below-

7.5.1 The RPM limit on all cars will be restricted as per 7.5.3 unless the engine type used is not listed therein. Only the use of an MSD 6AL ignition control (ref: MSD PN 6425) is permitted to control the RPM. The permitted ignition control must be fitted well out of reach of the competitor/driver.

7.5.2 Any control of the advance curve must only be RPM related. It must be executed solely by means of the distributor. No external control of the advance system is permitted. MSD ignition boxes that control advance or allow advance mapping are not permitted.

7.5.3 REV Limits:

V8-engines – 7000rpm
Twin-cam engines – 8000rpm
Jaguar straight-six engines – 6500rpm
Austin Healey 3000 – 7000rpm

[Gerard C]

Oups, Escort vs Capri Westlake or GAA will be a hard fight. Nothing about Astons? No external control of the advance is a good thing.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Oups, Escort vs Capri Westlake or GAA will be a hard fight.

Nothing about Astons? No external control of the advance is a good thing.

Ref cars in bold above- Not a problem in Gentleman Drivers, as its Pre '66 GT! (Apologies if I misunderstand your comment )

As far as Aston's are concerned, don't think there many to be seen in GD. I guess if one starts beating cars it shouldn't then a rev limit will be applied to them as well

[Mike Bell]

Appears there’s more changes from Masters, according a report in Autosport today- Specifically Historic F1.....

First is a separate season championship trophy for the over 60s! With an influx of hotshoes driving for owners, that’s a good move for the older or indeed pensioner owner-driver.

Second, the grid for the second HF1 race at meetings will be reversed, but only the top 8. Without looking, I’m not sure if the second race grid is based on the result of race 1 or qualifying.

Third, and perhaps the most interesting, is that overtaking will not be allowed in a race until after the first corner. This will hopefully reduce the chance of car damage and possible driver injury, Masters say.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

This will hopefully reduce the chance of car damage and possible driver injury

The first corner was the finish line for many cars during the few races I watched. What a wreck!

Do you remember an Aston beating all the Jag's during last Classic? May be this particular one will be ballasted with its FE?

[Robyn Slater]

Perhaps banning the use of dog boxes in fia minis should also be considered.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Do you remember an Aston beating all the Jag's during last Classic?

That was in Pre ‘63 where the Jags are earlier homologation spec. Plus the winning ‘Project’ AM was driven by a couple of the best historic racers out there.

[Gerard C]

For several years, VdeV has been limiting the revs to 8k (protos with Honda engine) after discussions with the teams. Worked fine.
The 6,5 k mark for the Jag's seems period correct but not that generous. All in all a good move forward if common sens prevails.

[MartinH]

With these new rev limits there may well be a lot of hi lift, long overlap camshafts up for sale on e-bay very soon !

Although the idea seems very good, it can be a bit of a double edged sword ; will Carol's U2TC & other series , plus the 6hrs follow (or be forced to follow) suit ? If not, then those competing in non rev-limited races, with money, will just have one or 2 engines and diffs of above & below 8K spec. Those that can't do that & are stuck with 8K spec engines won't be competitive in a free revs race.

The only reason I stopped racing 5 years ago was money & this may further drive out other privateers who would still like to race internationally or in a mixture of race series.

Additionally, running engines up to rev limiters is not always so good for those engines & could further increase costs & reduce reliability. Again, those with the money will flat shift against the limiter & pay the rebuild costs & those with less will go easy & lose time.

At the end of the day, everyone is free to compete or not & it seems no matter what rules & regs are put in place, it's the big budget guys that come out on top, but they & the organisers, do still need the little guys to fill out the entry for things to remain healthy.

Any thoughts on that ??

Martin

[apriliadriver]

MartinH is right. I gave up U2TC a few years ago (Alfa GTA). I knew I was not going any slower (or quicker !) but I was sliding down the finishing order inexorably. I knew my car was not super-tuned and it was more standard than most. The influx of money does not just affect the performance levels of the cars, but things like entry fees : Carol knew that for the well-heeled, the difference between a £500 entry fee and a £1200 fee was nothing. But it was to me, trying to do a full season of U2TC. I cannot criticise her for that - if I was running a series I would have gone down that route, I am sure.
So if you can't afford it, you can't race. It was ever thus.
The thing is, when a financial crisis hits the West, some of these guys will evaporate, not to be seen again - for example 1991/2001/2008 and so on.

Do the less well-off return then ? Probably not because the cars stay as highly-tuned and the circuit fees get higher and so on, one-way ratchet. Like most freelancers, my day rates did not change between 2008 and 2018 but the costs rose : I was one of the lucky ones.

A lot of sports start simple with plenty of entrants and a huge crowd who say " ...they're just like me ..." or "...maybe I'll have a go ..." or "...I know him and him..." . Over the years, the simplicity goes, the entrants/driver get wealthier, the crowds get smaller. That's the story of our sport.
Nick

[zefarelly]

Martin, like you, cost has driven me away as a regular, everything else is driving me further away as I don't see the point in trying to compete from my end of the scale. We used to do International weekends . . . we probably won't be allowed on the Continent soon!

as far as Revs go . . . . I retuned my Cortina engine a few years back, more torque, less revs, limit at 7500, peak power at 6900. I finally cracked under 60s at Brands and into 3:13's at Spa, all in a standard production car, no tricks required. . . . all factory running gear, clearly 15s off U2TC race winning pace @ Spa, but I was happy!

[zefarelly]

Nick, Like you, and our Friend Justin . . . we seem to be earning less than we did 12 years ago . . . I remember us being close to top 10 when U2TC started . . .

If I was allowed, I'd sell my Cortina, its a mere museum piece at present.

A (half) sensible GT car is a far more universal proposition, and can be used on the road as well!

[Duddha]

Guys,

I've tried motor sport and I thought, too much money involved, too much development, not sustainable if you can't follow the development game and so on. I then switched to other sports, endurance running first and then triathlon. I figured out it's the same everywhere and as one said once, it's all about what you are ready to do perform and what you will be satisfied with. I just figured out I love competing and just like a good engine is part of a performance it's also about getting the whole package right. No win comes from a single parameter, it's all of them altogether that produces the result so in my case, coaching, training, food, recovery, shoes, bike, and so on all have a part to play into the game. And it will always be like this, anywhere. It's not because it look simple or cheap that it will be..!

Back to motor sport and here speaking. The good point from REV limits is that it will stop the nonsense of people selling REVS to their customers. REVS are costly but as Zef' figured out and he knows his thing, it's torque that gets you out of the corners, and it was already the case back in 1965 as Carroll would say.

What I think will come out is more camshaft work and another way to develop and sell. The good guys have already been on torque for years so that's not going to change the order but in a way, the nonsense of a twin-cam with extra 200 REVS and supposedly 2HP more will stop.

Other than REVS, what really sticks out of the establishment to me is the freeing of exhaust manifolds on Mustangs in Masters Pre-66 TCs. Freeing this parameter might bring Mustangs closer to the Falcons, strangely some were already ahead but now these being fully free and I mean only controlled by the words "may use fabricated tubular steel exhaust headers but are not required to do so". That can cause serious developments... Way more serious than the wildest homologated tubular manifold on a Falcon...

Control is a lifestyle, it must be anytime, anyday and with common sense, that's what regulations are for. Freeing one or another parameter may well produce the needed result but there are always further implications just like there are afterthoughts to any decision..!