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Old 26 Aug 2014, 10:00 (Ref:3447657)   #1
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Blame Versus Responsibility.

Sorry to start yet another thread on the 'Spa Incident', but I want to make a clear distinction between Rosberg V Hamilton, as other threads have tended to do.

On mature reflection, and once he heat had died down a bit, I got to thinking about the wider picture.

I put the blame for the 'accident' firmly on Nico Rosberg, he failed to make a clean pass before the corner, and then continued to force the issue around the outside, which then became the inside for the next corner. Hamilton then took his racing line, as he was entitled to do, expecting Rosberg to back out, however, his team mate stuck with it and we had the inevitable coming together with dire consequences for Hamilton and a compromised race for Rosberg. Rosberg was wilful in the extreme.

Responsibility for the outcome I propose is 50/50 Hamilton, Mercedes Management.

Hamilton has been widely praised for being the ruthless, committed driver that he is and that is why so many people are fans of the man.His behaviour in previous close encounters with his team mate has shown that he considers Rosberg as just another rival, and the MB management have not reigned him in, leaving him to believe that it is acceptable to risk damage to both cars unless Nico back off.
So far Nico has played the team game and not chanced his arm in such situations. At Spa he 'made a point'! If Toto won't sort I will.

What else could he do?

Lewis was not going to change, management were not willing to give a clear definition of what close racing meant between team mates, so Nico taught both Lewis and Toto a lesson. 'Don't rely on me being the nice guy anymore.'

Blame Rosberg. Responsibility Hammy- Toto- Lauda.

One mans humble opinion.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 11:00 (Ref:3447678)   #2
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I see how you got to that conclusion, but I still think that Hamilton could've avoided the incident by giving Rosberg room. Yes, Rosberg should've backed off, but what he was trying was a regular overtaking move at Les Combes, he was just too far back, and Hamilton didn't have to cut him off as he could've driven around him at the next corner, having the inside line for the following turn. Rosberg forced the issue, and Hamilton just made it worse. And it was just down to fate really that caused Hamilton's puncture, and in turn his floor damage.

But I have to admit, what you say about Merc's management is interesting. Surely, after Hungary, Bahrain and Monaco, Merc surely would have thought that this might happen...
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 11:03 (Ref:3447682)   #3
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I can't see any reason at all why Hamilton should have given Rosberg room. Letting him past there, when the move was opportunist, to say the least, would have been passing the advantage to his team mate - and that was something Rosberg should have realised was never going to happen at the start of a GP that Hamilton badly needed to win to close the gap. Responsibility was 75% Rosberg and 25% Merc management for not laying the law down.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 11:18 (Ref:3447689)   #4
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I see how you got to that conclusion, but I still think that Hamilton could've avoided the incident by giving Rosberg room. Yes, Rosberg should've backed off, but what he was trying was a regular overtaking move at Les Combes, he was just too far back, and Hamilton didn't have to cut him off as he could've driven around him at the next corner, having the inside line for the following turn. Rosberg forced the issue, and Hamilton just made it worse. And it was just down to fate really that caused Hamilton's puncture, and in turn his floor damage.

But I have to admit, what you say about Merc's management is interesting. Surely, after Hungary, Bahrain and Monaco, Merc surely would have thought that this might happen...
What we don't know, of course, is what management had said.....it might well have been about the importance of not taking each other off.....in which case Wolff and Lauda's anger is understandable......

Whatever its surely the driver doing the overtaking who has the responsibility to do it safely, not the responsibility of the target to move out of the way. If you are side-by-side at the point of turn in, then both parties have to be accommodating...otherwise, bide your time and get the target next lap....when DRS might make it a breeze.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 11:55 (Ref:3447702)   #5
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Rosberg is to be blamed is also the responsible party for the accident. He should have known better than crash into teammate on the second lap. What I can't accept is the idiotic claims I have seen on the forums that Rosberg crashed into Hamilton on purpose.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 11:59 (Ref:3447707)   #6
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Whatever its surely the driver doing the overtaking who has the responsibility to do it safely, not the responsibility of the target to move out of the way.
That's right. The golden standard of racing is that the car in front always has the right to its racing line. If you dive on the inside you better be in front. Hamilton said something along the lines that the car on the inside of the turn should be at least at half car length along his car before expecting to be given room. This rule wasn't invented just for the fun. The driver in front often does not even see the car that's diving on the inside from behind, unless it's already side by side. Rosberg made a dive, but backed out, and if he was just inches behind he could have cleared his teammate's car without an incident. Rosberg's mistake and therefore his fault IMO.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 12:09 (Ref:3447717)   #7
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I personally think that you are biased, and that bias made you see what you want to see. Rosberg made the initial error but if Hamilton wanted to be 100% certain that they wouldn't hit each other than he could've given Nico some more room instead of cut him off. Just my opinion, feel free to be offended and respond
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 12:10 (Ref:3447718)   #8
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I see how you got to that conclusion, but I still think that Hamilton could've avoided the incident by giving Rosberg room. Yes, Rosberg should've backed off, but what he was trying was a regular overtaking move at Les Combes, he was just too far back, and Hamilton didn't have to cut him off as he could've driven around him at the next corner, having the inside line for the following turn. Rosberg forced the issue, and Hamilton just made it worse. And it was just down to fate really that caused Hamilton's puncture, and in turn his floor damage.

But I have to admit, what you say about Merc's management is interesting. Surely, after Hungary, Bahrain and Monaco, Merc surely would have thought that this might happen...
Couldn't agree more.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 12:12 (Ref:3447719)   #9
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Couldn't agree more with Biscuits
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 12:12 (Ref:3447720)   #10
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That's right. The golden standard of racing is that the car in front always has the right to its racing line. If you dive on the inside you better be in front. Hamilton said something along the lines that the car on the inside of the turn should be at least at half car length along his car before expecting to be given room. This rule wasn't invented just for the fun. The driver in front often does not even see the car that's diving on the inside from behind, unless it's already side by side. Rosberg made a dive, but backed out, and if he was just inches behind he could have cleared his teammate's car without an incident. Rosberg's mistake and therefore his fault IMO.
However if you afford the following car no room or respect and force the driver to brake heavily to avoid contact then you create a lot of space for yourself. There was a lot of hacking across Rosberg in the same manner in Bahrain, which conferred an advantage on Hamilton.
This was followed by forcing Rosberg wide in Hungary!
Was Hamilton sanctioned by Mercedes for his behaviour? I bet not, hence Bauble's theory probably has a lot of credibility.

Very difficult to race against someone if you always have to jump out of the way.
Current F1 rules regarding overtaking requires that you leave a car width, not chop across.

Racing incident I guess!

Last edited by wnut; 26 Aug 2014 at 12:18.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 12:16 (Ref:3447723)   #11
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Blame Versus Responsibility.

Everyone's biased. I don't think I've ever seen an entirely objective post in this whole forum let alone this thread.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 12:18 (Ref:3447726)   #12
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Everyone's biased. I don't think I've ever seen an entirely objective post in this whole forum let alone this thread.
So much bias in this one statement.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 12:52 (Ref:3447734)   #13
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Now look here chaps (?) I was not intending this to be yet another who's to blame thread, more a wider view of what lead up to it and what the consequences will be. The 'blame' issue has been well aired on at least two other threads on the forum, when launching this one I was using the term 'blame' in a very strict sense, in as much as Nico had obviously made up his mind long before the race about how he would react to Lewis in such a situation.

My main point is that had Mercedes taken a firmer line with both drivers about what was acceptable, and perhaps warned Lewis about his tactics earlier, we would not be having these discussions now.

I blame Nico for his frame of mind, and believe Lewis and management responsible for forcing Rosberg to act as he did.

The actual mechanics of the collision and it's aftermath are not the issue here.

Now get a grip will you
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 13:58 (Ref:3447750)   #14
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Nobody forced Rosberg to act like he did, but it was certainly within his best interests to tell Hamilton he's not being forced into backing out or crashing. The fact that, obviously unintentionally and indirectly, it forced Hamilton's retirement means that Merc have to look at themselves closer and Rosberg has got his point across in the best possible way.

Plus, it's great for the fans (or enthusiasts )
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 14:02 (Ref:3447751)   #15
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I personally think that you are biased, and that bias made you see what you want to see. Rosberg made the initial error but if Hamilton wanted to be 100% certain that they wouldn't hit each other than he could've given Nico some more room instead of cut him off. Just my opinion, feel free to be offended and respond
OK.

You're right. Hamilton could have said, 'Well after you Nico, my bestest pal, this should help you win the WDC'

I'm just not surprised that he didn't. Nor is anyone else who posts on Tenths.

Nor do I blame him for not saying it.

And I'm not offended.......
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 14:47 (Ref:3447775)   #16
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i must admit that it is a bit odd to me that the 'argument' that LH shares part of the blame has generated any traction at all.

its fairly clear cut i would have thought otherwise whats stopping a following driver from late breaking into every corner and saying to the lead driver 'its your responsibility to move out of my way'.

they would build cars with battering rams on them if that 'argument' was true.

on topic im sort of with baubles on the question of responsibility.

either through action or lack of action Merc have created what is race by race becoming a more volatile situation. their desire to finish one-two every race and too many bosses has lead to an unclear hierarchy, unclear rules about competition between their drivers, and now the drivers are sorting it out for themselves on track.

though in fairness i prefer that they figure it out on track rather then in the debriefing room.

so Merc are 100% responsible for making this a great, potentially even a historic, season.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 17:00 (Ref:3447815)   #17
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IMO the responsibility lies completely with Rosberg, due to his immature lack of self-discipline. He may have not liked something of Hammy from previous races, he may have not liked what he heard from team management, he may have not liked being overtaken so easily from P2 on the grid, but that does not give him carte blanche to take the law into his own hands and put his car somewhere where a collision was inevitable. Has he never heard that 'revenge is a dish best served cold?'.
How sad that just as one arrogant idiot retires, another comes along.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 18:03 (Ref:3447829)   #18
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IMO the responsibility lies completely with Rosberg, due to his immature lack of self-discipline. He may have not liked something of Hammy from previous races, he may have not liked what he heard from team management, he may have not liked being overtaken so easily from P2 on the grid, but that does not give him carte blanche to take the law into his own hands and put his car somewhere where a collision was inevitable. Has he never heard that 'revenge is a dish best served cold?'.
How sad that just as one arrogant idiot retires, another comes along.
David I take it that you do not agree that stronger management would not have let things get to the stage where Rosberg acted in such a fashion?

Do you believe that EVERYTHING is down to his flawed character?

That is the what my thread is about, why did it happen atall.

Interesting to get your views.
Thank's for your imput.

Cheers,

bauble.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 18:12 (Ref:3447832)   #19
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IMO the responsibility lies completely with Rosberg, due to his immature lack of self-discipline. He may have not liked something of Hammy from previous races, he may have not liked what he heard from team management, he may have not liked being overtaken so easily from P2 on the grid, but that does not give him carte blanche to take the law into his own hands and put his car somewhere where a collision was inevitable. Has he never heard that 'revenge is a dish best served cold?'.
How sad that just as one arrogant idiot retires, another comes along.
I must admit I only see one arrogant idiot in the Mercedes team, and it ain't Nico.

In terms of maintaining team harmony and avoiding the cardinal sin, Nico was in the wrong, but this was under severe provocation from a supposed team mate who has behaved the way you describe all season.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 18:15 (Ref:3447834)   #20
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I think the problem is that Nico's never been seen as an aggressive driver so when something like this does happen it's a lot more shocking, unlike Hamilton. Swap the drivers around and would we have as big a debate going on? I don't think so.
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 18:23 (Ref:3447838)   #21
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There may be something in that. The incident cannot be taken on its own - you have to look at the whole season and a number of incidents between the two. Rosberg has, until now, tried to be the perfect team player but all he has seen in response is Hamilton throw that back in his face. Finally he snapped. At a really stupid time, both in terms of the race and the championship. Only fate saw him extend his lead.

Looking at the incident and the opening argument of this thread, to be honest I don't really see blame needs to be apportioned. From a simple racing point of view, removing the team mates element, it was a racing incident between two drivers unlikely to give way. From a team perspective, Rosberg must take the responsibility for not avoiding the collision. It's possible Lewis could also have left room but I don't know for sure that he knew Rosberg was there.

I also don't think it's entirely fair to accuse the team of weak management. Many would complain if they had imposed stricter team orders. They didn't, they allowed the drivers to race and trusted in their professionalism. At least now, if the team do introduce stricter team orders (which I think they will) they can say, "well we let them race and look what happened."
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 18:38 (Ref:3447846)   #22
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Spot on there Garc, I think.

It's Tuesday.

Surely time to move on - God forbid we're going to churn this over until 7th September........
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 18:41 (Ref:3447848)   #23
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We must continue until everyone on the internets accepts that I'm right!

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Old 26 Aug 2014, 18:43 (Ref:3447850)   #24
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Ah, in for the long haul then..........
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Old 26 Aug 2014, 19:58 (Ref:3447876)   #25
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Baubs, I'm not a deep follower of F1 at all, in fact abandoned it for several seasons until a couple of years ago. So my views may seem a bit superficial, but here goes.
Hamilton is the faster driver, based on past performance. Hamilton is also the better racer in terms of pure dicing. When you look at all his moves, he has a huge percentage of successful ones against a few odd nicks here and there. Rosberg appears to be more cautious at overtakes, hence when he tries to be brave he runs into them (or it really was deliberate).
Food for thought - if Rosberg wasn't German would he still be in the team? If his nationality helped him get the seat then he's not there on racing merit alone, that makes him the #2 driver, and that is something he's struggling to come to terms with. His brain's like a pressure cooker and last Sunday something snapped - hence my point about lack of self-control and -discipline.
More food for thought: if it wasn't for these two having a ding-dong this could be a really boring season press/fan/publicity-wise. I do wonder if the team's past position of allowing them to race each other has been 'encouraged' by Bernie's henchmen to spice things up?
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