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Old 20 Feb 2017, 19:55 (Ref:3713497)   #26
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Schumacher wasn't keen on teammates seeing hus data. I never understood why if he was soooo good?
Was it because they would have instantly known the reasons he had such a speed advantage? (I.E traction control, better engines etc etc)
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Old 20 Feb 2017, 21:46 (Ref:3713529)   #27
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Team shouldn't work as a team. Might as well knock it down to single car entries.
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Old 20 Feb 2017, 21:54 (Ref:3713531)   #28
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Back in the good old days, Mr Senna used to sometimes copy the setups of Mr Prost... and mostly go quicker using them....

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Old 21 Feb 2017, 03:06 (Ref:3713573)   #29
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dsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Well for starters it would be very hard to enforce and secondly they are called "TEAM-MATES" for a reason.

If a driver doesn't want to share data he can put a request to the team manager to not share it, move to a team that says he doesn't have to share it or start his own team.
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Old 21 Feb 2017, 12:15 (Ref:3713655)   #30
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What does the team inside the team shouldn't be anyone business, regulations or not. For the record I don't agree with with the radio ban or teamorders ban either. Besides, if it's "driver data" why would Hamilton need a rule to prevent Bottas from using his data? Doesn't he know how to say no anymore?
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Old 21 Feb 2017, 12:17 (Ref:3713658)   #31
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On a practical sense, how would it work, not sharing data between cars? What if Bottas discovered something potentially race ending with a part? Does Lewis not get to know? What if something Lewis does opens the door to a big engineering improvement? Do you not give that part to Bottas side?

It's unmanageable.
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Old 21 Feb 2017, 14:07 (Ref:3713680)   #32
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Of course it is. It's just a ham-fisted (pardon the pun) attempt at mind games, which are not Lewis's forté.
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Old 21 Feb 2017, 17:36 (Ref:3713725)   #33
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When team orders are legal

When a driver can be told to slow down to allow his (so-called) team mate to win, surely sharing driver data is just a peripheral detail.
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Old 21 Feb 2017, 17:44 (Ref:3713727)   #34
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Or, in Lewis's case, told to speed up...
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Old 21 Feb 2017, 20:03 (Ref:3713771)   #35
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I'm only in favour of this if they ban all telemetry. Otherwise this is just a poorly thought out half way house like the radio team orders ban.

Although it did make me chuckle based on how it was delivered. Remember the old days when the mind games were more interesting too? 2/10 for that one Lewis.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 06:06 (Ref:3713898)   #36
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On a practical sense, how would it work, not sharing data between cars? What if Bottas discovered something potentially race ending with a part? Does Lewis not get to know? What if something Lewis does opens the door to a big engineering improvement? Do you not give that part to Bottas side?

It's unmanageable.
This is not what LH is referring to. Hamilton is not saying set up data, car issues or engineering improvements cannot be shared. Some of you guys are obviously confused. Or just one eyed Hamilton haters (<probably more this). LH is simply referring to driver data.

Someone said driver data and car set up data are one and the same. LOL, no it's not. Not even the same thing. But no point arguing with the armchair experts.

Schumacher, Prost, Mansell, Piquet and even Senna have expressed their dislike on sharing all data with team mates. Not just driver data. Schumacher and Mansell in particular, actually didn't. Schumacher when he was at Ferrari. And Mansell when at Williams.

Hamilton has commented further on this, and again I agree 100%.

Lewis Hamilton: “They should be able to go out there on their own and find it all themselves, without you. You could take a young kid from Formula 3, have them just go on a simulator and drive every single day and try and get to my lines. And eventually they’d probably get to my lines.

“He should have to discover that himself. You’ve got to find the limit yourself, that’s the whole challenge of being a racing driver. When I get in this new car it’s seeing what the limit of it is. If I can’t do it on my own then I’m not good enough and I don’t deserve to be there. And there are some drivers that don’t.”
(From JAonF1.com)

Agree 100%. You should not be allowed to copy someone else's homework to better yourself. This is basically what driver data sharing is.

What if say... FOM/FIA decided they were going to share the three leading drivers driver data with the entire grid? So as they could be as good as the top three drivers and "improve the show"? Good or bad idea? Might as well have driverless racing cars then. Hmmm... now there's an idea.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 08:19 (Ref:3713913)   #37
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Yes, great idea . So , in addition to already insulting my intelligence and boring me rigid with a penalty regime which is as inconsistently applied as it is unnecessary , we introduce yet another idiotic rule which , somehow , the sport has done without so far. And then I can look forward to reminiscing about Grands Prix whose result was in doubt for hours after the race ended while some techy anorak went through terabytes of bloody data to decide if the naughty man had snuck a look at his team mate's (even more of an oxymoron now ?)approach to Copse.

It's beyond stupid. I could not care a hoot who looks at whose data- it isn't why I watch motor racing and it seems a rule aimed to appeal to people who don't either .
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 08:22 (Ref:3713914)   #38
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Someone said driver data and car set up data are one and the same. LOL, no it's not. Not even the same thing. But no point arguing with the armchair experts.
So says the armchair expert from behind his keyboard.

It probably is of no interest to you that many of the contributors to this forum are current or past racing drivers, who although they may not have risen to F1 standards, nevertheless spent many hours setting up their own cars to try to achieve the best possible times. And their comments are born out of those experiences.

What has been said is that one is of no use without the other. And it is a proven fact that Hamilton is not a master of setting up his car, and I repeat, history informs us that he frequently had to change his set-up to copy Rosberg so that he could then go out and achieve his fast laps. As we are unable to turn the clock back, we will never know how much his achievements may have suffered if he hadn't had the opportunity to copy his team-mates data.

And anyway, it is a pretty mute point. Any decent driver worth his drive will be able to follow a quicker pilot and take note of the lines that they are taking, and noting were and how they are braking. Or do you propose that cars will have to go out one at a time so that nobody can copy what another is doing? And I suppose the other drivers are blindfolded and have to wear massive ear defenders so that they cannot even hear what the others are doing?

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Old 22 Feb 2017, 09:09 (Ref:3713923)   #39
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It probably is of no interest to you that many of the contributors to this forum are current or past racing drivers, who although they may not have risen to F1 standards, nevertheless spent many hours setting up their own cars to try to achieve the best possible times. And their comments are born out of those experiences..
Oh, so sorry. I didn't realise that. It probably is of no interest to you that I could also be a past/current racing driver, who although may not have risen to F1 standards, raced cars, speedway and karts at a national level for over 30 years, and have spent many hours setting up my own, and others equipment to try to achieve the best possible times, and still involved in motorsport at an engineering level. And my comments are born out of those experiences. So sorry if I insulted you, and all the other professional racing drivers on the forum.


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And it is a proven fact that Hamilton is not a master of setting up his car, and I repeat, history informs us that he frequently had to change his set-up to copy Rosberg so that he could then go out and achieve his fast laps. As we are unable to turn the clock back, we will never know how much his achievements may have suffered if he hadn't had the opportunity to copy his team-mates data.
Oh, right then. So it's a "proven fact" that Hamilton's fastest laps, and his achievements in F1 were due to him "copying" Rosberg's set up data. That I wasn't aware of either. Thanks for that inside information Mike Harte.




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Any decent driver worth his drive will be able to follow a quicker pilot and take note of the lines that they are taking, and noting were and how they are braking.
In F1?? Where 1-2 meters makes the difference between pole and 8th on the grid?? Good luck.
Better yet, as suggested by someone, watch the TV telecast and copy.

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Old 22 Feb 2017, 11:41 (Ref:3713964)   #40
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Sorry F1Guy, but you're looking at this in a far too simplistic way. Saying you have to do the homework yourself, but you CAN share car, setup and engineering data doesn't make sense, as these are the result of the homework. So you have to do the homework yourself, but can share the result? Sounds a bit odd. And pointless.

However if one were anti-Lewis, this could be twisted in a good way here. Lewis is saying other drivers shouldn't be allowed to see what he's doing (presumably because he knows he has good natural talent and wants to protect that). But he IS ok with team mates copying setups - since that's what he had to do with Rosbergs setup. So nobody can copy Lewis on data set 1, but Lewis can copy people on datat set 2.

Lewis comments seem more in-line with trying to build an argument against the use of simulators. It's oddly worded. He's basically saying everyone should do their own homework, but at the same time he's saying someone shouldn't be allowed to sit on a simulator for days to achieve it. So...are they meant to do the work themselves, or are they not? Because doing 2 days solid of simulator work seems like the homework.

Have cake, eating it, etc.

I like Lewis, but it's all just some poorly thought out strop he's having again. He doesn't like that his team mate can benefit from his work - despite not turning up to test days and what not. Maybe if they stopped him using parts that Rosberg had done the homework on to develop then he'd change his opinion pretty quickly. F1 is a team sport. Don't like it, then go run a single car GT team or something. Data sharing should not be banned for the same reasons the radios should not be restricted. This is a team sport and the rule is not enforceable and open to abuse.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 14:58 (Ref:3714023)   #41
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^That.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 15:00 (Ref:3714024)   #42
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Also, F1Guy, I see you've been a member of the forum since last month. You may well indeed be a very experienced racing driver with a lot of interesting things to say, but it doesn't help to come swaggering in like a cowboy to a saloon and insulting people who've been posting on here for years. It makes people ignore what might be very evidence-based arguments. An internet forum is like any club; a bit of humility from new members finding their feet goes a long way. I've been here nearly 15 years and I know I still have a lot to learn.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 16:46 (Ref:3714052)   #43
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TSchumacher, Prost, Mansell, Piquet and even Senna have expressed their dislike on sharing all data with team mates. Not just driver data. Schumacher and Mansell in particular, actually didn't. Schumacher when he was at Ferrari. And Mansell when at Williams.
indeed, not wanting to share one's own data is one thing.

but surely it is something else entirely to not want to look at the data of others.

cant for a second imagine Schumi refusing to look at a competitors, sector times, braking points, lines etc etc.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 18:52 (Ref:3714074)   #44
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cant for a second imagine Schumi refusing to look at a competitors, sector times, braking points, lines etc etc.
Absolutely!

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Old 23 Feb 2017, 10:09 (Ref:3714221)   #45
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Every driver tries to find some advantage somewhere, so if that means finding out where their rivals are quicker they will do it
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 11:09 (Ref:3714233)   #46
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It happened in MotoGP for a short time, especially when riders in the same team were running different tyres, an unprecedented situation, and also when there were huge rifts between riders.

It made little difference to results, and was largely a placebo I think for the riders involved. Obviously the tyre relevant data could not be shared as it would giveaway loads etc.

I would think the only real thing it might do is allow a team to go their own way a little more in terms of setup. Which is a good thing in my eyes. As it allows a driver or rider more freedom to make the car their own.

Garry McCoy in 500's 1999/200 was the only rider to pick a certain size tyre as his to run all year after pre season testing. He rode a particular way, and found a setup that propelled him from mid grid to GP winner after this testing had created this set-up. No-one else ran this tyre much so he found an advantage that suited him. The top riders wanted to use this tyre as Garry had won with it and they started developing the tyre around their styles and preferences, not the guy who picked it out first and won GP's on it, he was left behind as he was not a main factory rider. So he swapped brands the next year and was looking as good again until injury forced him out.

We have all heard stories on the past of drivers and riders not being "allowed" to make radical changes to a car as that is how they like them to feel. I think this happened at Williams a few times, and Benetton when Schumacher was there. and I expect the Ferrari/Schuey era the car was designed with him and certain tyres in mind rather than as a complete tool. That is understandable as he was a likely winner and it makes sense.

But a good car is a good one usually for most who drive it, and there aren't umpteen ways of getting round a track quickly, usually only two or three!

Major examples I can recall of a team-mate not being able to drive a car his team-mate could were Rosberg and Prost at McLaren, Herbert and Schuey and Lehto at Benetton and Frentzen and Villeneuve at Williams.

And I doubt data sharing had anything to do with that.
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 11:21 (Ref:3714238)   #47
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This is something to be decided within a team via contracts and in no way to be governed by the sport. While I can understand a driver having issue with his data going across the room, for the team it's all about having both their drivers performing to their maximum to achieve maximum team points, and that is often aided by the sharing of data within the team to raise the average.

It's a team sport after all.
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 16:33 (Ref:3714294)   #48
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This is something to be decided within a team via contracts and in no way to be governed by the sport. While I can understand a driver having issue with his data going across the room, for the team it's all about having both their drivers performing to their maximum to achieve maximum team points, and that is often aided by the sharing of data within the team to raise the average.

It's a team sport after all.
It is a team sport where in the ideal world booth cars/drivers are given exactly the same equipment information and treatment because 2 strong cars surely means more points even though one of the two will always come out on top and use the kit better than their teammate. (More interesting)

But some teams (and perhaps their driver) like to reduce that completely and they run a team centred around one car/driver and use the other car as a tail gunner/strategy guinea pig/jammer car/etc etc (not very interesting!)

That version of a team sport baffles me completely unless either one driver or car is sooo much better than the competition they can win one handed meaning they don't think they need to bother with optimizing the performance of the other car/driver then the team might as well have both cars duking it out because of the limited threat from behind a la McLaren 1988/89, Mercedes 2014-16.

Like you say though there maybe certain contractual conditions pre arranged by one driver that gives preference over another decided by the team owner or by star driver as a condition of joining that team. However what if the other driver is not fully aware of that at the time they sign their own contract? That would kill team morale and then said driver would find themselves ostricised when they quite rightly speak out in surprise. (We know this has happened in the past!)
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 21:50 (Ref:3714351)   #49
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For this to make sense presuambly no one in the team can share one drivers data with the other or even be seen to have possibly done so. That could get interesting e.g.

Lewis: "Herr Lauda, I'm having this issue on turn 3, any suggestions"

Niki: "Sorry, can't say anythig as I've just seen your teammates data for that corner"

Ultimately, while it might be a nice idea, it's not enforcable. You'd have to have an FIA rep with the drivers any time they talked to anyone.

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Old 23 Feb 2017, 21:58 (Ref:3714353)   #50
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I don't think drivers should be able to see each other's tweets
http://www.autosport.com/news/report...-freedom-in-f1
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