Giveway To Teammate

[Tf105]

Was wondering.... what if say Ralf and Trulli were running in position 1 and 2 respectively..with a comfortable lead... is it ok for Ralf to let Trulli pass him so he'll be able to take his points closer to MS in 3rd position?

If i recall, before I was so into F1 i think I caught wind of a simliar situation involving the Ferraris.... was that so??

[Knowlesy]

Well no, it's not OK really.

In fact, if it was done blatantly it would be classed as breaking rules.

Yes, Ferrari have been in a similar-ish situation. Several times.

[BootsOntheSide]

Even 'gifts' such as Senna mvoign over to let Berger win the 1991 Japanese Grand Prix as a thank you for helping him win the title would not really be acceptable in the current climate. And Trulli has no chance of catching Micahel for 3rd in the championship, realistically I don't think anybody does. In any case, the likelihood of Ralf running ahead of Trulli with both cars on top pace is quite low.

[Kicking-back]

I don't see why anyone should have a problem with it.

[Knowlesy]

I think people just don't like the idea of people moving over voluntarily for each other.

There are times I don't mind it so much......for example when the McLaren boys switched places in Hungary to maximise both strategies, although it still isn't ideal IMO. Better to race each other.

[thebear]

See Nigel Mansel's comments on this topic HERE.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by thebear

See Nigel Mansel's comments on this topic HERE.

Pathetic really Sod the pit wall..

[BootsOntheSide]

How bitter, spiteful and twisted would Nigel be if he hadn't've won the title?

[Ralf's Girl]

No, it wouldn't be okay. As Boots pointed out, Trulli isn't likely to catch Schumacher in the championship anyway, and it wouldn't be of any benefit to Toyota to swap the drivers around; if they won a race this season, I don't think they'd mind which driver won it as long as they got the points. And presumably if they used team orders, some kind of sanctions would be (rightly) brought against them.

[Knowlesy]

Well if you'd have preferred missing out on a classic chase to the flag like the 1987 British GP, by all means condemn Nigel. I'm glad he did it personally and it was a great win.

As for the 1992 French GP......

[BootsOntheSide]

There's just no need to bring the subject up now. It jsut seems like a nother part of Nigel's ongoing crusade against current F1. He never mentioned this situation in the past, even when Piquet was accusing the team of being biased towards Nigel, when surely it would've been relevant to defending himself? Also, you've got to remember tthe context - Williams lost the title to Prost through their drivers taking poitns off each other the rpevious year.

[Knowlesy]

Well they weren't going to lose the title to anybody in 1987.

I agree that Nigel seems to have some kind of weird crusade against modern F1 though. Although in some seasons I'd have a hard time arguing with him, his criticism this year is largely misplaced, although he is entitled to his opinion of course.

[Tf105]

the question was all hypothetical to all the people who started playa hating on Trulli and Ralf.... and why can't Trulli catch MS.. he's only 19 points ahead..and this is F1...where anything can happen.... 6 races left.... ferrari could have a bad spell and MS scores no points what so ever.... ...
but my original thread was hypothetical... let's not turn it to a whos better than who thread....

and here's my prediction.... before the season done.. both toyotas will be on the podium

[Dutton]

As far as I am concerned, the teams should be freely open and able to do whatever they want with regards such matters.

[Gt_R]

Indeed Dutton.

Although from a fan's point of view..to see cars slug it out on their own is probably more enticing, it's hard to deny that teams who spent huge amount of money have a say over how they wish to achieve a better result.

Be it for example, Ralf should help Trulli get third, or Ferrari helping Michael consolidate his WDC position, or Ron telling Montoya to give way to Kimi. It's just a logical process for people who have a direct interest in the outcomes.

The FIA and teams and fans should stop making it seem like a taboo subject, simply because by doing so, there would always be some teams/drivers who try to hide such order while employing it all the same.

Keep it open. If a team wants to use it, we may not like it, we may disagree with it..but at least teams be honest and i'd at least know how to better judge a driver.

[Oaksnaf]

What should be done, is what Carlos did to Jones in 81. Just ignore it and race to win.

Of course the argument springs to mind *your in a team* but in the case of Ralf V Trulli, they arn't exactly seperated in the points by a gaping whole like Renault are. They are actually quite close in combat. And it would be stupid for Toyota to choose a preferance when both drivers are reasonably close.

Only 4 points seperates them.

Plus team-orders will always be used, blatant or not, to a large extent, to a small extent. Just because we dont see them doesn't mean they arn't there.

I always believe the fastest driver should win and screw team orders. But thats just me.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

What should be done, is what Carlos did to Jones in 81. Just ignore it and race to win.

I'm afraid it doesn't work that way anymore.

Ralf tried to ignore team orders favouring Damon.
Ralf tried to ignore team orders favouring Montoya.
But the teams now just forced him to follow the orders.


(The situation may or may not have improved a little bit since the abolition of non-hidden team orders).

[krt917]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

The FIA and teams and fans should stop making it seem like a taboo subject, simply because by doing so, there would always be some teams/drivers who try to hide such order while employing it all the same.

Keep it open. If a team wants to use it, we may not like it, we may disagree with it..but at least teams be honest and i'd at least know how to better judge a driver.

Well said. I preferred it when we could see what the teams had done (Ferrari 2002, for example) and then we could all debate on whether it was the right decision. Now, we just debate on whether a decision was ever made!

As for this particular scenario, I can't see Toyota imposing the order - third or fourth place in the drivers championship wouldn't make too much difference to them, I wouldn't have thought, and they'd stil get the same constructors points (which, financially, is much more important). And, if it was toward the end of a race, with no stops to go, I don't think Ralf would move over, precisely because of the perception he has of previous team orders.