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24 Nov 2014, 18:49 (Ref:3478296) | #1 | ||
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Selfish or Cowardly Mercedes?
This year Mercedes have proved to have the most powerful engine, and have run away with both the Constructors and Drivers titles because of it. Aided true by a very good chassis.
With an engine freeze neither Ferrari or Renault are able to catch-up and Mercedes refuse to allow any changes. If they were confident of their abilities and had the best interests of the sport in mind, as they claim, surely they should not hang on to their advantage, and be prepared to accept the challenge of other manufacturers? The very idea of any sort of freeze is completely against the ethos of Formula 1,which is supposed to be about technological advance. One can understand Mercedes not wanting to relinquish their advantage, but in recent years when Red Bull were dominant, there was no restriction on other teams catching-up if they could. Today the advantage is basically set in stone. One more strike against the 'pinnacle of the sport'. |
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24 Nov 2014, 19:27 (Ref:3478320) | #2 | ||
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While I thought the restrictions on the development of the power unit (right after making a huge change to the spec), was stupid from the first I learned of it, that was the rules everybody entered the competition under. To depart from that would be changing the rules in the middle of the game, which Mercedes would be right to be upset about.
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Just give them some safety rules, limit the fuel (to control the speeds), drop the green flag, and see what happens. |
24 Nov 2014, 19:39 (Ref:3478325) | #3 | ||
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It's neither selfish nor cowardly. Mercedes did the best job and invested heavily over the winter for themselves and their customers!
Would you expect red bull to give away their chassis secrets to Mercedes over the last few years? Or brawn give away their double diffuser for free? Christian Horner was the first to jump in and say f1 isn't a charity one the bigger teams shouldn't give the smaller teams money, and therefore an advantage, why should Mercedes be as charitable to red bull? |
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24 Nov 2014, 19:39 (Ref:3478326) | #4 | ||
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the rules always get changed in the middle of the game...that might be the only certainty in F1.
imo Merc just need to be given proper incentive and/or the proper leverage needs to be found to get them to change their position. and not just Merc, teams like Williams and Force India need to be given an incentive as well. i suspect that a compromise will be found but it will be late in the game giving Merc and their customer teams a chance to build up some points for the early part of the season. makes no sense to give the other teams the whole winter to catch up, no point in letting them bring updated engines to the winter tests...allowing them develop over the course of next season seems like a fair compromise to me...with the added bonus of giving us a chance to see in season development back in F1. |
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24 Nov 2014, 19:52 (Ref:3478333) | #5 | ||
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However Mercedes have done the best job. If Honda have an advantage in 2015 will Mercedes change their mind? The rules are the rules they signed up to but they always want to change them to suit themselves. Mercedes is not selfish nor cowardly. they are in a competition and you play by the rules.... That is what they are doing. Competing. They just did it better in 2014 than anyone else did. You wouldn't give your competitors an advantage by changing the rules in their favour in any other competition so why here? We would like more equal engines but not a cost/development war so any change to the rules has to incremental and very carefully considered. |
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24 Nov 2014, 19:54 (Ref:3478335) | #6 | ||
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F1 teams are all selfish.
If this was a functional sport, the governing body would mediate a fair resolution in the long term interest of all the teams and the sport. But we don't have that with this sport. It's all backroom deals, secret agreements and outbreaks of noisy tantrums from jealous stakeholders. |
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24 Nov 2014, 20:38 (Ref:3478350) | #7 | ||
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All the teams have a number of points they can put towards changing their engines - maybe they don't have enough points to drastically re-design their engine for nest year, but there isn't a total engine freeze.
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/...ines-of-today/ |
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24 Nov 2014, 21:04 (Ref:3478363) | #8 | |||
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Just give them some safety rules, limit the fuel (to control the speeds), drop the green flag, and see what happens. |
24 Nov 2014, 22:09 (Ref:3478384) | #9 | |
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I am sure if Renault were in this position they'd welcome an engine unfreeze with great fanfare.
I have never liked the engine freeze tbf, but the teams knew what they were signing up to. Can only blame themselves for doing such a crap job. |
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24 Nov 2014, 22:13 (Ref:3478387) | #10 | ||
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Since Honda are entering the fray, they have a year of development more than all the other engine manufacturers, I presume. Surely that is a little unfair.
Or have I misunderstood, and the Honda engine was frozen at the same time? |
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24 Nov 2014, 22:25 (Ref:3478392) | #11 | ||
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Funny the look on some of the bosses faces if Mclaren-Honda swept the first six races.
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If I had asked my customer what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse. -Henry Ford |
25 Nov 2014, 00:34 (Ref:3478420) | #12 | |||
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If they have to go to something like this, I think this was a slick way to do it. Sure, later entrants get the advantage of seeing some of what worked and didn't but a lot of it is super-secret intake and combustion chamber design or other goodies you can't know without getting your hands on a power unit (unlikely) or poaching talent from another manufacturer (more likely but possibly still very difficult). Probably it's a smaller advantage than it appears and the later you enter, the less opportunity you have to fix your mistakes. |
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Just give them some safety rules, limit the fuel (to control the speeds), drop the green flag, and see what happens. |
25 Nov 2014, 01:08 (Ref:3478428) | #13 | |
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Wonder where F1 would be now if Colin Chapman had enforced his exclusive use agreement on the Cosworth DFV ....
"Funny the look on some of the bosses faces if Mclaren-Honda swept the first six races." Paradise City Bet the Honda boys have had a pretty good look at the Merc engine! |
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25 Nov 2014, 01:22 (Ref:3478429) | #14 | ||
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A good look at the outside, but the engine itself is sealed and I'm sure Mercedes keeps a short leash on their engines.
I remember a big controversy in CART when Pat Patrick supposedly let a Chevy engine get into the hands Alfa Romeo when they were developing an engine for CART. Probably that's no longer possible, with Lojacks inside them or something. |
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Just give them some safety rules, limit the fuel (to control the speeds), drop the green flag, and see what happens. |
25 Nov 2014, 01:35 (Ref:3478432) | #15 | |||
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As for the second point, the problem with mediating in the long term interest of the teams is that the short term interest of CVC seems to come first 90% of the time. In F1's defence about the backroom deals and secret agreements, IMO I don't think they're deliberately trying to create an unfair sport, more that they don't need to announce every single decision they make. Deals and talks are taking place all the team but I don't want to know about every single little thing. |
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25 Nov 2014, 02:29 (Ref:3478440) | #16 | |||
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If I had asked my customer what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse. -Henry Ford |
25 Nov 2014, 04:40 (Ref:3478455) | #17 | |
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[QUOTE=miatanut;3478429]A good look at the outside, but the engine itself is sealed and I'm sure Mercedes keeps a short leash on their engines.
Exactly. I'm surprised that at season's end people are still speculating this sort of line. Merc's procedure was spelled out at commencement. |
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26 Nov 2014, 08:45 (Ref:3478800) | #18 | ||
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With the problem that the field had against RB in the Vettel years the field if they had been clever enough had no impediments placed in their way to develop aero equal the RB apart from someone clever enough to implement it and money to do so. Two very different scenarios. Horner is very two faced when it comes down to stuff like this. |
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26 Nov 2014, 08:57 (Ref:3478804) | #19 | ||
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It stopped anyone trying to start a parallel series in competition as they could not harvest the top teams from his series It guaranteed that the teams could not just shut up shop and go home as happened some years ago It gave him a period of stability and ensured the top teams were always there and he could negotiate with promoters knowing that What happens if there is a blow up and things start getting legal is anyone's guess. I would reckon that RB for instance if they wanted out would find a way and take him on in any court he wanted to name. The other problem that will occur is when the contract period ends some teams will leave and there will be big gaps. I don't think that will be BE's problem though. Some of the thinking behind the contracts could be it gives the sport some stability during a period of handover which can't be far away. If the new management is not to the teams liking they have to either lump it or find a way out. |
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8 Dec 2015, 22:35 (Ref:3596494) | #20 | |
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There is a court case looming between Mercedes and one of their employee's. It is reported that one of the group leaders in the engine division handed in his notice as he was on his way to Maranello at the end of his contract.
After that he was redployed to the DTM section and had his Laptop wiped clean so that he did not have any F1 data on it. He was not allowed any access to the F1 part of the operation. It seems he subsequently got hold of more recent F1 data and tried to conceal this. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122187 http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/me...ound-engineer/ I wonder where this will end up? Probably with some lawyers lining their pockets. |
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9 Dec 2015, 01:11 (Ref:3596531) | #21 | ||
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10 Dec 2015, 10:37 (Ref:3596803) | #22 | |||
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#teamyorkshire |
18 Dec 2015, 18:41 (Ref:3598639) | #23 | ||
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19 Dec 2015, 01:29 (Ref:3598694) | #24 | ||
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Mercedes simply want to be seen as dominating the pinnacle of racing. They see F1 as a promo for their hybrid technology and nothing else. Furthermore the less they have to spend on maintaining their position the better. Mercedes have no interest in the sporting aspect of F1, and no interest in its continued good health, they are merely using Bernie's circus to promote their hybrid technology. They care nothing for F1! Chapman on the other hand was heavily invested in F1 and knew that he was dependent on the growth and health of F1. A position all the non manufacturing teams should realise that they are in and adopt! |
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19 Dec 2015, 01:35 (Ref:3598695) | #25 | |
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