Club & National dates released

[JustinDawkins]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Heard clarification that the National Champion must drive a post-89 car.

Pre-90 will have a separate Cup but will not score points overall.

A sensible outcome, credit where it is due - the BRSCC seem to be making a good effort with FF1600 this year.

agreed

[SCOBER11]

WTF a champion should be allowed drive whatever car they want to compete after all it is supposed to find the quickest ff1600 driver in the country not the quickest in a post 89 car.

[JohnMiller]

And HTF are you going to do that when in the NorthWest they race on a grid about a second and half slower then?

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

And HTF are you going to do that when in the NorthWest they race on a grid about a second and half slower then?

Well then surely they will be the back markers and nobody has to worry about them.
The reality is, there are pre '90 cars/drivers out there who are good.
Perhaps not very many, but there are a few who could cause major embarrasment to the guys in new machinery, including the good guys.
And the 2008 National Champion (and a few others I dare say) will look across the paddock at someone and think, sheooot I am glad they were in pre '90.
Which has to devalue the Championship.

[Ian Sowman]

But I think this is the best solution to the problem posed by the existing championship format in the North West. It's considerably better than having nothing for the Pre 1990s, which was the alternative. A shame more people can't praise organisers when they make the effort, as in this instance.

I've never thought that having separate Pre/Post competitions devalues CFF NW, incidentally.

[JohnMiller]

Spot on!

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

But I think this is the best solution to the problem posed by the existing championship format in the North West. It's considerably better than having nothing for the Pre 1990s, which was the alternative. A shame more people can't praise organisers when they make the effort, as in this instance. I've never thought that having separate Pre/Post competitions devalues CFF NW, incidentally.

I am sure everyone is aware that the organisers have a difficult task and are to be commended on their sterling efforts. It is a thankless job no doubt.
Perhaps this is the best scenario given the different classes and regional Championships which will be running as well.
However the fact remains the National Champion cannot legitimately claim to be the best FF1600 driver in the country (although he very likely will be).

Also, the writer above makes my point for me. The Pre/Post competitions are not devalued as each have their own Championship. But a National Championship surely should transcend all the regional ones.

Anyhow!! what is to stop a 1989 Reynard being called a 1990 Reynard

[Redracer77]

I may have not looked at the rules properly but why can't all FF1600s enter the main National Championship? If a pre 90 driver who wants to race in the North West and National championship then he enters both races when the National races at Oulton? If he justs wants to do North West then he just enters that race?

Why would you want to restrict an 89 Reynard from winning a championship for FF1600. Paul Dagg has a Reynard and could look to win races as Joey Foster would do if he raced his 89/07 version!

Any FF1600 should be allowed to enter the National Championship whether you are Stu Gough in a 07 Ray or Rory Farrell Jnr in a Crossle 45f..

[SAMD]

Exactly! Without knowing the "in's and out's" of the whole thing, to me that would appear sensible.

[Ian Sowman]

And they are allowed to enter. But because Pre 1990 cars will compete in a separate race to the Post 1989 ones in the NW-based events it isn't possible to make a completely equitable points system, taking into account the likelihood - well, certainty actually - that the quicker drivers in general compete in Post 1989 cars and therefore it could (would) be considerably easier to win the Nationals in a Pre 1990 car.

We've already been through the arguments of why a Pre 1990 National entry shouldn't take part in a Post 1989 NW/National race.

That's why a separate prize has been established. Just like in the North West. In all but name you're having a Post 1989 and Pre 1990 National champion.

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

And they are allowed to enter. But because Pre 1990 cars will compete in a separate race to the Post 1989 ones in the NW-based events it isn't possible to make a completely equitable points system, taking into account the likelihood - well, certainty actually - that the quicker drivers in general compete in Post 1989 cars and therefore it could (would) be considerably easier to win the Nationals in a Pre 1990 car.

We've already been through the arguments of why a Pre 1990 National entry shouldn't take part in a Post 1989 NW/National race.

That's why a separate prize has been established. Just like in the North West. In all but name you're having a Post 1989 and Pre 1990 National champion.

Sorry Ian I dont agree. If an RF89 Van Diemen races in the National Championship then they should have as much right to be there as an RF90/Ray07/Mygale01 etc etc. They would be racing in the National race the same as an RF01 coming from Midlands South to race as well. They would be racing for National points and not Class A/B points?

[Ian Sowman]

There are no separate National races Chris. The National series runs concurrently, i.e. in the same races as, the regional ones.

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

There are no separate National races Chris. The National series runs concurrently, i.e. in the same races as, the regional ones.

thats my point Ian.....a pre 90 then gets the chance to race in 2 races if he/she wants at Oulton Park...the normal pre 90 race and the national race that runs at the same time as the Post 90s...

[DALY]

SIMPLE SOLUTION

If you want historic racing, get a car of the correct age,
if you want Classic, ditto..
If you want Club FF1600 regional..ditto
if you want to race in the National Kent championship to score points...ditto..

The value of pre 90 cars has been high due to the demand for these especially in the excellent pre 90 classes in the NW.

With the advent of national kent racing and more excitingly, the new chassis' that are being made by a variety of manufacturers, the limiting of National FF Kent to post 89 cars will not only enhance their value, but also encourage new chassis' to the formula. New younger entrants will buy/rent these and the category continues to build. Progress?

[SAMD]

Maybe that is what happens and knickers are being twisted pointlessly here

The pre '90 cars do their own race and then everyone who wants to, all and sundry, do the National race. If its over subscribed then run a short heat for the 20 slowest qualifying times.

[JustinDawkins]

Very true, a pre 90 car has never won the WHT outright before or anything.

Oh ****

[youngoldy]

All I ask is what cars are allowed to eter in Club FOrmula Ford

The idea of the National FF idea was that 'you could race you formula ford, in a national series' and therefore it was open to all. Then the BRSCC say 'only Post89 cars'. All the plans we had made and then we get the elbow.

For 2009, to get rid of running the National FF with the regional races, I suggest that the National FF races are held in different races from the NW/MS races. Like another race on the timetable, where, like you pay £200 entry fee to the MS/NW race, and pay £200 for the national round. So if there is NFF and a MS/NW race on the sameday, you would end up paying £400 on the day, but only if you want to do both the NFF and MS/NW. If you only want to enter the NFF race, then you only £400. That way, if you want to do the NFF, you dont need to enter the NW/MS a the same time and get punted off by a regular NW/MS who isnt doing the NFF.

Anyone with me?

[Ian Sowman]

Yes, totally. I'm sure that will happen if National FF1600 is a success this year. And I'm sure a deal could be done for reduced entry fees for doing two races.

Will you be running the car in the National Cup this year?

[youngoldy]

Yes, a Van Diemen 88 in the northwest and national all year, and a Swift 92 at a few of the National and NW rounds.

And who knows, if the competition is strong enough, we may get our (Red and Black Racing) secret weapon(s) out.

Just getting slightly off topic, anyone who posts again in this thread, do they know the FF1600 lap record for Donnington short?

[SCOBER11]

So are we going to base the National Championship around NW post89 front runners so they won't be "punted" off or base it around formula ford to see who the quickest is over a season.

Why isn't it a stand alone race in the NW most of the people who were calling for the championship are based there so there is a grid and don't enter budget into it because if you were flat broke you wouldn't be motor racing in the first place.

As far as i can see anyways.

[Crossflow]

what time did bradshaw get down to youngoldy

About the national series i think it right to have an age limit because it a national series after all and you don't see 20yr old chassis going into the duratec series do you know??

a national series need to keep an image that it's for the pinacle of kent chassis cars that are about. do you honestly thing that a 89vd or 89reynard is going to be setting top 3 times and competing for the top spot i don't think so. Also a 90vd or 92vd (i think i can remember one winning the festival 2 years ago) can set time that of the newer cars and when they were relised back in the day it was years ahead of it's competors.

i don't think anyone has a case to fight to get into the national series with an older car get with the times and just get a car that can race in the national series and stop moaning about the rule.

[SCOBER11]

You don't see a rf90 in duratec either do you and wait its post 89. Besides duratec isn't even a real ford.

National means National if it can't stand on its own two feet then it shouldn't happen.If you want to race in classes do a regional championship .

[youngoldy]

Originally Posted by SCOBER11

National means National if it can't stand on its own two feet then it shouldn't happen.If you want to race in classes do a regional championship .

Well, when we asked the BRSCC who the championship would be open to, they said all FF1600 cars. They then said Post89 only. Its now goone back to all FF1600 cars, but with a Pre Cup and a Post Cup. And know people dont want 'slow cars' entering, when most Pre90 front running cars are quicker than say the 70% of the Post89 feild.

Originally Posted by Crossflow

what time did bradshaw get down to youngoldy?

Looking at race results on the old FF1600 webby, he's pretty much on the pace of Gavin Wills. But his time in qually was from 2005, in the middle of summer. We did our times in winter, with gale force winds heading gown the back straight. Compared with the last testday Tom did in the Swift at Anglesey in October, he was miles nearer the pace. He got used to the car, we knew the car a bit better, some setup tips. They all contributed to being on the pace. Where Dean Stoneman was 3 seconds of what a pace setting FRenault can do.

Originally Posted by Crossflow

do you honestly thing that a 89vd or 89reynard is going to be setting top 3 times and competing for the top spot i don't think so.

Well, Peter Daly in his 89VD seems to be doing good enough to get podiums against the likes of Gavin Wills, David Grady, Ed Moore, James Cole and Dave Connor (all in Post1999 machinery, and usually beating all but one of them.) A name you mentioned yourself, Bradshaw. He managed mid 1.04's at Oulton Fosters in his 89 Reynard. He went quicker than that in our 88VD. David Bailey in his 89 Reynard beat the 00VD Infiniti cars at the Moose Trophy at Anglesey in '07. Stu Gough in a late 70's VD at Anglesey in December, was right on the pace of Loebell and Rivet after only a handful of laps in testing.

If you can get the car sorted, and a driver who's talented, your on a winner.

[Ian Sowman]

I don't think anyone doubts that Pre 1990 cars can mix it with more recent ones with the right driver. But the fact of the matter is that, by and large, the quickest drivers likely to enter National FF1600 will be in Post 1989 cars. That is what matters.

[Crossflow]

If you remember a certain mr whelan set the same time as bradshaw did that year and in the festivals he was the best finishing rooke at one stage he was lying 3rd in the festival final. But when i was talking to him he said that he feals that he can go quicker in his 90 now then he did in his 89reynard.

You should see very clearly that the older cars are only closer to the pace on tracks that have big straights as the tracks you have named. This is because they don't have to run the side impact protection that has been inforced since 1995.

You bring your rf89 to mondello and see how you get on believe me pushrod cars **** all over them and any other tight tracks.

It not about older cars entering it's about an image and as it's a national champ only modern stuff should be allow post89. This also keeps the racing close as most of the cars will be on the pace and you will get that classic FF1600 racing where they are all in a big train and anyone could win the race.

As Ian say's the quickest drivers all have modern machine so it's no problem to them anyway