[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Scorchess]

Not really, the point is that if it's not ready it needs more racing with it, not less.

[Akrapovic]

Yeah except that's not what he says.

The technology is ready. Its done several Le Mans already. If we're taking car failures as proof of something not being ready then we better get rid of the internal combustion engine, since the retirements were caused by engine, clutch and driver failures. Hybrids caused no retirements.

[TF110]

Toyada isn't saying the tech shouldn't be used. He's saying they couldn't drive "all out" with their hybrid technology. I think this was echoed by Toyota's chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/detail/17148283

Although it is a shame that cars No. 7, No. 8 and No. 9 experienced the flaws and troubles they did, in truth, there is something we still lack..

Also confirms they'll be back next year for anyone thinking they'll pack up and go somewhere else.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyada isn't saying the tech shouldn't be used. He's saying they couldn't drive "all out" with their hybrid technology. I think this was echoed by Toyota's chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/detail/17148283


Also confirms they'll be back next year for anyone thinking they'll pack up and go somewhere else.

That's how I took it to mean, they want to improve the tech so the team can run faster and longer taking the strain off of other components. But hey we're all apparently engineering geniuses who Toyota just forgot to call for our expertise.

And Toyota's board seems to be very dedicated to making the tech and a win work out. To the point they are spending R&D money for racing and wouldn't be surprised to see parts of the TS050 end up being advertised as improving their Lexus/Toyota performance cars.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

We should stop pushing technology and just put Chevy V8s in all the cars. That's the true spirit of Le Mans!

A man after my own heart. You know they're direct injected now, right?

[ederss7]

The best part of this regulation is that we have old school racing with high technology.

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by ederss7

The best part of this regulation is that we have old school racing with high technology.

Oh yes ! It seems that Hybrid prototypes are still at the beginning of development. Some good LMP1 non-H entries will make the races still entertaining.

[Adam43]

When sports car racing was good () cars used to be pushed to the limit and breakdown. It doesn't bother me that it has happened again and I don't think those involved should be bad mouthed so much as they have been over the last couple of days. It's cool, it's part of the sport (the breaking down not the bad mouthing, that's more part of the internet).

[chernaudi]

Problem I have is that the ACO with the current regs put so many eggs into the hybrid basket that they basically forced Porsche and Toyota to do the same. This while ignoring other areas that can be improved and possibly forcing Toyota and even Porsche to compromise in some areas because the hybrid systems yielded the most performance potential.

Not to mention that I never thought that the weight drop from 900kg (915 for hybrids) to 870-875 was the best of ideas.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Problem I have is that the ACO with the current regs put so many eggs into the hybrid basket that they basically forced Porsche and Toyota to do the same. This while ignoring other areas that can be improved and possibly forcing Toyota and even Porsche to compromise in some areas because the hybrid systems yielded the most performance potential.

Not to mention that I never thought that the weight drop from 900kg (915 for hybrids) to 870-875 was the best of ideas.

We seem to forget, that these rules are really as a result of meeting the requests of the manufacturers, not the ACO ramming their ideas down the manufacturers throats.

[Articus]

I have no idea why they keep saying that the manufacturers were involved in the 2020 ruleset.

Behind the scenes it seems like Porsche and Toyota aren't exactly chomping at the bit for 2020..What am I missing? If the new rule set is a direct response to their request, why was the initial response lukewarm?... There is an interview out there somewhere from Leupen or Vasselon that is not very positive at all.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Articus

There is an interview out there somewhere from Leupen or Vasselon that is not very positive at all.

That was the one Motorsport-total opinion piece which only included a couple of short quotes, in a lighthearted context.

Only one I've seen so far who has talked about this in public is Seidl and it doesn't sound very "lukewarm":
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...gulations.html
http://www.crash.net/le-mans/news/25...ours-grow.html
http://www.racer.com/wec-le-mans/ite...p1-regulations

I guess it is just easier to blame ACO/FIA rather than admit that this 1km EV gimmick was the best the manufacturers could come up with.

[TF110]

I don't like the new rules in terms of direction they're taking. The same amount of hybrid is ok, but nothing seems enticing for new entries in the factory class. I'm sure more will be revealed, but so far it seems like more of something not a lot of people are asking for. I have a hard time believing the manufacturer's wrote the majority of the rules. I think they were at the talks, but the surprise reactions from things like the 1km only electric from both Porsche and Toyota tell me they weren't really asking for that.

What really irks me is the way the cars will look. They made them skinnier 3 years back and raised the roofline. Now they're raising it again and widening the cockpit area. They're already somewhat unattractive to look at, it'll be even worse now. It might be a trivial thing in the light of safety, but they can move the driver towards the middle and solve both the helmet clearance and seating angle in one go. I guess they want to hold onto tradition of the appearance it being a 'two-seater'. But I wouldn't mind seeing a central seating position like the McLaren F1 or this 905 Spider

[Articus]

Originally Posted by deggis

That was the one Motorsport-total opinion piece which only included a couple of short quotes, in a lighthearted context.

Only one I've seen so far who has talked about this in public is Seidl and it doesn't sound very "lukewarm":
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...gulations.html
http://www.crash.net/le-mans/news/25...ours-grow.html
http://www.racer.com/wec-le-mans/ite...p1-regulations

I guess it is just easier to blame ACO/FIA rather than admit that this 1km EV gimmick was the best the manufacturers could come up with.

Wasn't to blame the ACO. Just a little confused. Maybe confimation of 2020 entries from Toyota, Porsche, Puegeot would help for me. Because right now, no one has made any real moves for 2020 considering that they have known about them in some detail well before Le Mans.

[Sodemo]

I think like many (all?) motorsport programs, these things come down to money. Is the return on investment going to be worth the outlay.

With LMP1, you are now relying on a manufacturer who is willing to spend $150 a season in order to field 2/3 cars. How many manufacturers are willing to do that?

The costs need to come down, because in my view, the marketing returns dont justify the outlay. Sure, keep the hybrid stuff if thats what the car makers want, however it needs to be simplified and made cheaper.

I also think that the non-hybrid LMP1 cars need a big helping hand too. Make them 250kg lighter, give them a 20L bigger fuel tank and a bigger rear diffuser and then we might see some competition from them for outright wins.

[deggis]

Neveu says the plug-in hybrid part will be a spec component:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/m...in-technology/

Even more perplexing.

[Akrapovic]

I think the plugin hybrid is a perfectly sensible thing. What is a car doing in a pit stop? It's taking on fuel. What is fuel? It's an energy source. What is electrical power? It's energy. Not only that, it's energy that does not have to be recovered from the spent fuel. As far as the race car is concerned, it's getting some extra free energy.

You could easily attach the plug-in port to the fuel hose and have them attach as one. That way nobody will even notice the plugin part. Making it a spec part makes sense in that regard, and keeps costs down.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I think the plugin hybrid is a perfectly sensible thing. What is a car doing in a pit stop? It's taking on fuel. What is fuel? It's an energy source. What is electrical power? It's energy. Not only that, it's energy that does not have to be recovered from the spent fuel. As far as the race car is concerned, it's getting some extra free energy.

You could easily attach the plug-in port to the fuel hose and have them attach as one. That way nobody will even notice the plugin part. Making it a spec part makes sense in that regard, and keeps costs down.

You know that's how a flame thrower works, right?

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

You could easily attach the plug-in port to the fuel hose and have them attach as one.

Uh, sparks?

[Akrapovic]

I don't mean stick the plugin into the actual fuel hose. However you could have a system which connects safely and can be used whilst fuel is flowing. We use such systems on offshore oil & gas platforms - completely safe electrical couplings (providing they are maintained, which is the biggest issue offshore), and even have electrical equipment which can run and operate in a room filled with flammable gas at a perfect LEL mixture. Some of the systems offshore are now safer than running water as an ignition source (not an exaggeration).

That engineering solution already exists. They don't have to use it if they're overly concerned about it. But either way, all the car is doing in a pit stop is taking on energy (and tyres). Taking on electrical energy is no different to taking on hydrocarbon fuel. You plug something into the car and it transfers it over.

[JLGarcia]

FIA World Endurance Championship CEO Gerard Neveu expects overall budgets in the LMP1 Hybrid class to be slashed under the newly announced 2020 regulations,

Under the new regs, hybrid-powered cars will be required to complete the first kilometer after each pit stop under full electric power, as well as crossing the line to finish the race in the same manner.

Given how well the cars did on electric-only this past weekend, I'm a tad skeptical that reaching both of these goals is realistic. But then like most things WEC, realism doesn't matter, we just have to believe.

[Akrapovic]

You could easily make one of the current cars run decently fast for 1km. You'd be out of juice afterwards, but I imagine they could do a single km. Crossing the line to finish the race could be turn the ICE off at the Ford chicane.

I don't see this stuff being a huge problem even for todays cars, with proper settings mapping. In 3 years time? Yeah that's fine.

I don't see the problem with a spec plugin charger. Aren't fuel hoses spec?

[TF110]

I think it's something no one asked for, and hardly anyone desires. The plug-in part, I guess that's somewhat cool. But going 1km on electric, then probably running out of that electric power means that the p1's will hardly be as fast as an lmp2. And how will they allot that 8mj if it's combined with the energy from the pit stop recharge? Imo it's already 'green' enough to do the pitlane on electric power, but they want the whole 1km. Will that take up all the 8mj given per lap? And how will the cars stay at "race speed" if they limit the output of the electric engine at 370kw now? I wonder if they even thought this through. That output is some 100hp or more below what lmp2's put out from the combustion engine. So that will not be enough to do "race speed" with unless they relax the rule on the output from the electric motors. That opens up another can of worms on the safety aspect because La Sarthe is not FIA grade 1.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think it's something no one asked for, and hardly anyone desires. The plug-in part, I guess that's somewhat cool. But going 1km on electric, then probably running out of that electric power means that the p1's will hardly be as fast as an lmp2. And how will they allot that 8mj if it's combined with the energy from the pit stop recharge? Imo it's already 'green' enough to do the pitlane on electric power, but they want the whole 1km. Will that take up all the 8mj given per lap? And how will the cars stay at "race speed" if they limit the output of the electric engine at 370kw now? I wonder if they even thought this through. That output is some 100hp or more below what lmp2's put out from the combustion engine. So that will not be enough to do "race speed" with unless they relax the rule on the output from the electric motors. That opens up another can of worms on the safety aspect because La Sarthe is not FIA grade 1.

I agree pretty much with this.

I'm all for the plugin system because it's road relevant, it's a standard part, so cheap (and all plugs of any sort should be a standard! That's what plugs are for! And fuel fillers are standard!), the cars taking on energy, and it's not needing to recover it from fuel. I am all for the plugin charge during a pit stop.

The rest I think is possible, I just don't see the point. I do believe the current cars can do 1km on hybrid, and I think they'll get better at that in the future. And they can finish on hybrid alone. I think these are both perfectly possible and easily achievable. I just don't see why.

[Scorchess]

Because it's a gimmick and car manufacturers like that. It's the whole reason so many of them do FE. As both a racing series and a technology development ground it's an absolute joke but nobody cares about it because it's 'e'.

The public has largely bought into the electric hype train, the manufacturers are just looking for the cheapest ways to board it. Without investing too much when the whole thing collapses again.