Lites / LMP3

[Ospi]

It's a dangerous game to play though because they risk the teams who have put down deposits walking away to ligier. I do hope the wait is worth it and it is capable of winning races.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

It's not junk - there is only one reason why the car hasn't raced - they can find more speed (lessons learned in the Riley-Multimatic LMP2 design process)

So they claim....

and with a 4 year homologation lock-down it makes perfect sense to have the fastest car you can.

Very true. But don't forget that the Ligier is already under that lockdown. If the Riley was truly ready to go and be competitive, there's no reason not to commit. Ligier's homologation is going to end sooner, so if they rework the car into a superior package, Riley is going to be hurting until their own homologation expires and they can rework the car. The shorter that period is, the easier it'll be to recover if they want to continue the program.

Sure, saying "junk" might be a bit extreme an assumption, but the overall situation makes it look like their package is currently uncompetitive. If they've got a package that can match or beat the Ligier, now's the time to lock it in, not later.

[billy bleach]

Where ist the mythical allegedly fast Ava Riley that was due to run at Snetterton?

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Where ist the mythical allegedly fast Ava Riley that was due to run at Snetterton?

As per comments above - the first car is in USA undergoing reworking of floor, splitter and engine cover

In answer to other comments above - I have spoken to several people who observed the car in testing at Red Bull Ring - it IS already a competitive car.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

As per comments above - the first car is in USA undergoing reworking of floor, splitter and engine cover

In answer to other comments above - I have spoken to several people who observed the car in testing at Red Bull Ring - it IS already a competitive car.

GG... this was something I'd brought up long ago in this thread. They are reworking and improving the car PRIOR to homologation. Some choose not to belive.

[FormulaFox]

I'll believe it when I see it. I've already pointed out why it makes no sense to wait to homolgate if they already have a competitive car.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

As per comments above - the first car is in USA undergoing reworking of floor, splitter and engine cover

In answer to other comments above - I have spoken to several people who observed the car in testing at Red Bull Ring - it IS already a competitive car.

"Some people" were any of them outside of the Murphy Team? Indeed does anyone know where the Murphy Team is? .....

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

"Some people" were any of them outside of the Murphy Team? Indeed does anyone know where the Murphy Team is? .....

So no agenda behind that question then?

If you have facts about the car then do feel free to field them here?

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I'll believe it when I see it. I've already pointed out why it makes no sense to wait to homolgate if they already have a competitive car.

OK - I'll type it more slowly this time

So - They - Can - Have - A - MORE - Competitive - Car

We'll see when, and only when, the car is out and competing - until then it is all about what you do, and don't believe.

Ligier have several advantages - the others need to grab back ground where they can find them - learning the lessons of other development from within the same design team makes perfect sense before you lock in a four year, no performance improvements permitted, homologation.

[Matt]

Bill Riley wouldn't put a car out he didn't think was 100%.

[Ephaeton]

The point I don't get about FormulaFox's disbelief in the sense of homologating it later is the following: You'll run the season with this thing. I'd assume the whole season. You wouldn't usually change car to a new version of the same manufacturer during the season (cost, uncertainty) except it's a proven new package, well ok. But let's assume we homologate today. What races are there in 4 years where it would matter? If calendars stay the same, say, you could update to a new Riley P3 for the final ELMS race. I would assume though, people wouldn't. They'd update to a new version between seasons. If that assumption is correct, then, it wouldn't matter if you homologate on the first day after the season or the last day before the season, for the teams (ok, logistics and all, maybe, but let's assume you can deliver the new car with homologation on the same day for the sake of the argument). What it would achieve though, is a couple of more months of development time. So yes, the others have a leg up in bringing the new version of the car, but if you can improve your car so it can dominate 2-3 years (no typo here, we assume we only change cars after the season; don't know the homologation date of our first P3 and whether it might return to business with a new version, that's how the "2" gets in there), in the second, and possibly the third year, you'd rock the market. So, with my crude assumption from above, I can certainly see why one would wait to the latest possible (logistically possible to build and ship cars and parts for teams' pre-season tests) date to homologate. Now, if the assumption of keeping your car (of the same manufacturer, mind you) throughout the season is correct, what other mechanics did I overlook?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

OK - I'll type it more slowly this time

So - They - Can - Have - A - MORE - Competitive - Car

Okay, since you clearly ignored my response to that point earlier, I'll retype it here.

If the homologation is LOCKED DOWN for a few years then waiting will hurt them in the long run.

The Ligier's homolgoation is already locked in. It's going to end before the Riley's.

Ligier is going to be able to debut an improved car sooner. The longer Riley waits to lock things in, the more time Ligier has to steamroll them with their improvements once their current homologation ends. The longer this period lasts, the more likely it is that Riley will lose customers.

The longer they wait, the harder it will be to win back customers once the Riley's homologation ends.

If they have a competitive car NOW they need to lock it in NOW if they don't want to lose out in the long term. They're not up against some random up-and-comer here, they're up against an established and experienced builder of competitive prototype racecars.

These delays only make sense if the tests have indicated there is an issue that will make the car UNcompetitive - it makes even less sense to knowingly debut an uncompetitive car than it does to sacrifice the long-term for a short-term benefit, after all.

If we were talking about an open development class I could actually understand this - the best possible debut can create far better long-term prospects in such a case. But this is a locked-down class, and the timing of the lockdown with their opponents has put a wrinkle in the matter that WILL screw them over in the long term if they don't play it smartly. Delaying things without a clear NEED to do so is not a good idea.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Okay, since you clearly ignored my response to that point earlier, I'll retype it here.

If the homologation is LOCKED DOWN for a few years then waiting will hurt them in the long run.

The Ligier's homolgoation is already locked in. It's going to end before the Riley's.

Ligier is going to be able to debut an improved car sooner. The longer Riley waits to lock things in, the more time Ligier has to steamroll them with their improvements once their current homologation ends. The longer this period lasts, the more likely it is that Riley will lose customers.

The longer they wait, the harder it will be to win back customers once the Riley's homologation ends.

If they have a competitive car NOW they need to lock it in NOW if they don't want to lose out in the long term. They're not up against some random up-and-comer here, they're up against an established and experienced builder of competitive prototype racecars.

These delays only make sense if the tests have indicated there is an issue that will make the car UNcompetitive - it makes even less sense to knowingly debut an uncompetitive car than it does to sacrifice the long-term for a short-term benefit, after all.

If we were talking about an open development class I could actually understand this - the best possible debut can create far better long-term prospects in such a case. But this is a locked-down class, and the timing of the lockdown with their opponents has put a wrinkle in the matter that WILL screw them over in the long term if they don't play it smartly. Delaying things without a clear NEED to do so is not a good idea.

I hear your point, and all I can tell you in response is that Tony Ave profoundly disagrees and ultimately it's his call!

He has sold cars already - I believe up to six by last month, and he clearly wants to sell many more - He is very aware that he does not have the depth of investment available that Onroak do and needs to grab the advantages where he can - He believes, whether you accept the answer or the commercial logic or not, that squeezing the best performance that they can out of their package, is worth the delay.

Ginetta did not homologate their car until very late in 2015 (actually AFTER the Ligier I believe) that seems fair enough as the ACO utilised the Ginetta experience to refine the rulebook.

Ultimately the market will decide.

[chernaudi]

Dealing with some posters here is like dealing with the 2016 presidential election. And I'm gonna respond the same way that I already have on FB over the election '16, and that's summed up by this: Welcome to my ignore list.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

I hear your point, and all I can tell you in response is that Tony Ave profoundly disagrees and ultimately it's his call!

Indeed it is. Unfortunately, it still makes little sense as presented.

He has sold cars already - I believe up to six by last month, and he clearly wants to sell many more

This is, incidentally, another big part of the reason I don't trust the claims. Not only does it make no sense, but the claims are all coming from a person who has a direct vested interest in selling the car. People lie, especially when it comes to things they want/need to sell. If the car is uncompetitive he'd have every reason to keep that under wraps until the problems were fixed.

He is very aware that he does not have the depth of investment available that Onroak do and needs to grab the advantages where he can - He believes, whether you accept the answer or the commercial logic or not, that squeezing the best performance that they can out of their package, is worth the delay.

And we shall see one way or another. It's not like long-term success is IMPOSSIBLE here, just that he's putting himself in a harder position by taking this option, assuming his claims are correct.

Ultimately the market will decide.

That's actually precisely my point - Ave's playing a dangerous game when it comes to the market for this stuff. If he's lying, it's going to bite him HARD if Riley can't fix it. If he's being truthful it's likely to bite him a couple years down the road when the Ligier gets improved for it's re-homologation.

And that's ignoring the ever-present possibility of it still turning out to be uncompetitive when they finally homologate and run the car.

There's always the possibility that Riley could pull something out with their upgrades a couple years later to win back the customers, but the delays to the program leave me less than confident about their ability to do so.

It is extremely rare for the homologation of a car to be delayed just to make a competitive car even moreso - the only other example I can think of in recent years has been the ongoing Lexus GT3 car - and it's had some very PUBLIC "testing" showing that the car could be competitive and that they're just working on improving it further. The Ave-Riley LMP3 has been kept behind closed doors, so we literally know nothing other than what the creators are claiming.

[Matt]

oh my god

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Indeed it is. Unfortunately, it still makes little sense as presented.



This is, incidentally, another big part of the reason I don't trust the claims. Not only does it make no sense, but the claims are all coming from a person who has a direct vested interest in selling the car. People lie, especially when it comes to things they want/need to sell. If the car is uncompetitive he'd have every reason to keep that under wraps until the problems were fixed.



And we shall see one way or another. It's not like long-term success is IMPOSSIBLE here, just that he's putting himself in a harder position by taking this option, assuming his claims are correct.



That's actually precisely my point - Ave's playing a dangerous game when it comes to the market for this stuff. If he's lying, it's going to bite him HARD if Riley can't fix it. If he's being truthful it's likely to bite him a couple years down the road when the Ligier gets improved for it's re-homologation.

And that's ignoring the ever-present possibility of it still turning out to be uncompetitive when they finally homologate and run the car.

There's always the possibility that Riley could pull something out with their upgrades a couple years later to win back the customers, but the delays to the program leave me less than confident about their ability to do so.

It is extremely rare for the homologation of a car to be delayed just to make a competitive car even moreso - the only other example I can think of in recent years has been the ongoing Lexus GT3 car - and it's had some very PUBLIC "testing" showing that the car could be competitive and that they're just working on improving it further. The Ave-Riley LMP3 has been kept behind closed doors, so we literally know nothing other than what the creators are claiming.

Are you suggesting you disbelieve they have some 6 cars, or you disbelieve they have sold ANY cars?

I'd personally take Mr Goodwin's estimation with higher regard than your personal opinion based on his previous record of leading a consistently well informed Motorsport news organisation....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

Are you suggesting you disbelieve they have some 6 cars, or you disbelieve they have sold ANY cars?

I'd personally take Mr Goodwin's estimation with higher regard than your personal opinion based on his previous record of leading a consistently well informed Motorsport news organisation....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you doubting the 'I have confidentiality I have to protect but oh crap I've been wrong more than right' poster? Why I've never heard such craziness in all my life.

And I believe more than just Tony have said they have sold cars and orders were confirmed. If you're so worried about how good the car is then why would you want it NOW? It would be better to make the BEST and most refined product you could as the season is pretty much over in terms of teams deciding they're going to get a new car to end the 2020 season because Ligier has a new one. If the Ligier is consistently better those with a Ave-Riley are going to leave after the season anyway. But if he waits until the car is the best it can be and homolgates it before the 2017 season he has at least 2 months more running to test the car. So why would I give up free testing time to get it out for 4 years from now?? That's not cutting your nose off to spite your face, that's cutting off your head cause you're tired of getting a haircut. It might make non-customers who want to see the car and tell us how much better they'd make it happier, but the actual buyer would rather have a good well-sorted chassis.

[Matt]

ALLEGEDLY, FF has told a friend of mine on another forum that he has never said that he's had NDA's or association with a team.

[joeb]

@FormulaFox. We all understand your point, and I think you understand the opposite view as well. Please stop repeating this over and over. We have one of the most respected racing journalist telling you what the manufacturer has told him. If you don't believe it fine. Just drop it.

[fieldodreams79]

Sooooooo......

Does anyone have a potential 2017 IMSA LMP3/Lites entry list that they can compile and post, to prevent me weeding through this thread and articles?

[Coach Ep]

Thanks for the clean up joeb!

Are you going down to NOLA for TA this weekend? Just curious.

[hondafan37]

10 to 12 Ginetta G57 are expected in the V de V in 2017.
It is a pity that ELMS Lmp3 is limited to the Nissan engine and do not accept the Chevy engine. This would give variety to the series that now do not have it.

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/dix...ndues-en-2017/

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

10 to 12 Ginetta G57 are expected in the V de V in 2017.
It is a pity that ELMS Lmp3 is limited to the Nissan engine and do not accept the Chevy engine. This would give variety to the series that now do not have it.

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/dix...ndues-en-2017/

What kind of laptimes does the Chevy engined Ginetta produce?

I know I've laughed at the Riley and I still can't get rid of that Lego car image in my head, but I agree that there is no point in homologating a car that isn't good enough. A bad product usually doesn't sell.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

10 to 12 Ginetta G57 are expected in the V de V in 2017.
It is a pity that ELMS Lmp3 is limited to the Nissan engine and do not accept the Chevy engine. This would give variety to the series that now do not have it.

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/dix...ndues-en-2017/

You'd need to restrict the Chevy quite a bit, and even then I think the G57 had significant upgrades beyond the LMP3 which wouldn't be homologated. I don't think it's as simple as that unfortunately.