Another new touring car ruleset (German Procar Series)

[Speed-King]

I don't think this was really covered so far in the English speaking media, but the German Procar series is set to phase out the S2000-cars in its first division in favor of cars build to a new homogrown ruleset dubbed "Division 1T". It is for 1.6l turbo charged cars, but at a considerably lower spec and cost than either WTCC TC1 or TC2.

Forced induction systems have to be production based and the ruleset seems to be aimed at subcompact cars, as all the cars that have been announced as in build so far have been Minis, Fiestas and Peugeot 20Xs.

There seems to be quite a lot of interest from teams in the new category, so we might for a change see a decent grid in ADAC Procar this year, especially since the cars from the old Mini Trophy will be run in the third division.

What I am not sure about is if another 'island' solution really is the way to go or if - in the longterm -it would have been better to coordinate with other series. Also, I am not a big fan of having sub-compacts as the series' future top class, but then, a Fiesta today is not much smaller than a Focus back in the Super Production days - if at all - and I guess getting a Focus down to the required 1020kg baseweight would be kind of expensive.

[FIRE]

The touring car situation is difficult in Germany.

I would rather see bigger cars.

Do you have some links to websites with more details?

[Speed-King]

For some reason, this hasn't been publicized very well.... TCT even wrote that Procar would allow the TC2-spec 1.6l turbo cars in their new category.

The ADAC Procar website has of course some infos:

http://www.adac-procar.de/default.as...offen%E2%80%9C

as does their facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/DTC.AdacProcar?fref=ts

If you are a tech-buff you can also have a look at the tech rules themselves:

http://www.adac-procar.de/default.as...20Bestimmungen

Here's my attempt at piecing together an early entry list for the new category:

Dombek/Besaplast - Mini 1.6T (modified endurance car)
Wolf Racing - Ford Fiesta
Leidinger Motorsport - car unknown so far
Heide Motorsport Mini 1.6T
Racing for Friends Mini 1.6T
MRP Motorsport Peugeot 207

I think there's more, though, as the recent news articles from the Procar organization all sound rather bullish.

[porsche962fan]

they should have adopted NGTC regs and maybe local teams could have build their own cars as well as buying from UK

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

they should have adopted NGTC regs and maybe local teams could have build their own cars as well as buying from UK

I think they are targetting considerably lower costs than NGTC, but looking at it as a fan, that might have been a good idea, though there really aren't many available used cars in England at the moment.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

they should have adopted NGTC regs and maybe local teams could have build their own cars as well as buying from UK

Not realistic.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Not realistic.

Well, there is a bit of a precedent with Schläppi running BTC-spec MGs in the mid-2000s, but the series was much stronger back then and money for touring car racing seems to have been more readily available.

[FIRE]

Yes but the amount of S2000 cars were always low.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Yes but the amount of S2000 cars were always low.

They were doing well enough 5 or 7 years ago... not a full-grid of S2000 cars, but in some years they'd had around 30 cars on the grid across three divisions. Not stellar and nowhere near the glory Super Production years with 40+ cars in most races, but still a nice little series.

Things really only went downhill over the last few years when they did away with division 3 and S2000 numbers began to dwindle even further.

[AxelF]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

They were doing well enough 5 or 7 years ago... not a full-grid of S2000 cars, but in some years they'd had around 30 cars on the grid across three divisions. Not stellar and nowhere near the glory Super Production years with 40+ cars in most races, but still a nice little series.

Things really only went downhill over the last few years when they did away with division 3 and S2000 numbers began to dwindle even further.

Best years were, when it was named DTC (Deutscher Tourenwagen Cup), with a lot of BMW M3 E30, Ford Sierra Cosworth and maybe also Nissan Skyline. The Grids were full, the look of the cars were not very far away from them of the higher DTM, and there were also a lot of good driver names and also young talents. Maybe some kind of WTCC for Germany only.
As far as i remember, there were only one other cars group on the grid. Id rather feel bored to see fast S2000 cars running with Ford Fiestas and other sub-compact cars, that are the opposite of spectacular and fast.

Of course there should be a cheap class for beginners, but its very uninteresting to see such small and slow cars on the track.

[NaBUru38]

Is the new class compatible with VLN?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Is the new class compatible with VLN?

Partially at least, as one team is using their SP2T-spec mini in the new division.

Problem is that SP2T isn't really a class known for huge fields or lots of variety, though the Peugeot 208 GTi from last year's 24h race would make for a nice addition.

[Metzo]

the series went downhill after they lost the tv deal with dsf back in 2005.

quite odd thinking back in 1998 when they used Group N/Super Production Cars they raced at the AVUS and "only" 32 cars where allowed to start due safety reasons, in 2000 the series was at its peak with an average of 40 cars plus 10-15 cars in DTC Light for older cars

today they would be happy if they could get 20 cars on the grid. a tv deal would help a lot to find sponsors and would make it more interesting for new teams to join

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Metzo

today they would be happy if they could get 20 cars on the grid. a tv deal would help a lot to find sponsors and would make it more interesting for new teams to join

Grid figures won't be the problem this year, as they'll integrate a dozen or more cars from the defunct Mini-Challenge into their field. Quality is of course another matter.

Best years were, when it was named DTC (Deutscher Tourenwagen Cup), with a lot of BMW M3 E30, Ford Sierra Cosworth and maybe also Nissan Skyline. The Grids were full, the look of the cars were not very far away from them of the higher DTM, and there were also a lot of good driver names and also young talents. Maybe some kind of WTCC for Germany only.
As far as i remember, there were only one other cars group on the grid.

Wasn't it called Deutsche Tourenwagen Trophäe back then?

Also, the M3s were in the under 2.5l class, whereas the Sierras and Skylines were in the class above. There also was a third division - dominated by the Opel Kadetts- that normally ran separate races.

[Metzo]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Wasn't it called Deutsche Tourenwagen Trophäe back then?

Deutsche Tourenwagen Trophäe was a different series which exited until 1996. it had multiply classes including the 2 liter Group N cars, iirc it was the class with the most entires. DTC used simliar cars when it started in 1995, in 1996 a lot of teams moved from DTT to DTC as the costs for the cars were a bit lower and also DTCs popularity grew fast thanks to the live tv coverage on DSF.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Metzo

Deutsche Tourenwagen Trophäe was a different series which exited until 1996. it had multiply classes including the 2 liter Group N cars, iirc it was the class with the most entires. DTC used simliar cars when it started in 1995, in 1996 a lot of teams moved from DTT to DTC as the costs for the cars were a bit lower and also DTCs popularity grew fast thanks to the live tv coverage on DSF.

Ah, but wasn't DTC from the beginning just a 2-liter Group N series? I only was really old enough to follow it from around 1998 and it was all 2-liter N/A cars by then.

[Metzo]

yes , it was just a 2 liter Group N series from begin on, slighty different from the DTT 2 liter Group N cars. DTC was more interesting and easier to follow for the viewers as it only had one class, DTT had 4 classes iirc.

i wish Procar would go back to a 1 class formula instead of multiple classes.

i wonder if there will be any S2000 entires this year

[Metzo]

provisional entry list:

Division 1:
tba - Wolf Racing - Ford Fiesta ST
Reinhard Nehls (GER) - Besaplast Team Dombek - MINI JCW Challenge
Johannes Leidinger (GER) - tba - Ford Fiesta ST
Matthias Kaul (GER) -RACING TEAM KAUL - Opel
Markus Huggler (SUI) - HUGGLER MOTORSPORT - BMW 320i E46

Division 2:
tba - ETH Tuning - Peugeot 207
Andreas Rinke (GER) - ETH Tuning - Citroen Saxo VTS
Olaf Müller - LAFIA MOTORSPORT - Citroen C2
Maira Müller -LAFIA MOTORSPORT - Citroen C2
Michael Kowalski (GER) - Kowalski Racing - Ford Fiesta
Yury Krauchuk (BLR) - GLATZEL RACING - Ford Fiesta ST
Ralf Glatzel (GER) -GLATZEL RACING - Ford Fiesta 1,6 16V

Division 3:
tba - Heide Motorsport - MINI JCW Challenge
Bernhard Wagner (GER) - Frensch Power Motorsport - MINI JCW Challenge
Thomas Tekaat (GER) - Besaplast Team Dombek - MINI JCW Challenge
Henry Littig (GER) - Besaplast Team Dombek - MINI JCW Challenge
Steve Kirsch (GER) - Frensch Power Motorsport - MINI JCW Challenge
Kai Jordan (GER) - tba - MINI JCW Challenge
Michael Heide (GER) - Heide Motorsport - MINI JCW Challenge
Lisa Christin Brunner (GER) - IMC Motorsport - MINI JCW Challenge
Victoria Fross (GER) - IMC Motorsport - MINI JCW Challenge

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Metzo

provisional entry list:

Division 1:
tba - Wolf Racing - Ford Fiesta ST
Reinhard Nehls (GER) - Besaplast Team Dombek - MINI JCW Challenge
Johannes Leidinger (GER) - tba - Ford Fiesta ST
Matthias Kaul (GER) -RACING TEAM KAUL - Opel
Markus Huggler (SUI) - HUGGLER MOTORSPORT - BMW 320i E46

Division 2:
tba - ETH Tuning - Peugeot 207
Andreas Rinke (GER) - ETH Tuning - Citroen Saxo VTS
Olaf Müller - LAFIA MOTORSPORT - Citroen C2
Maira Müller -LAFIA MOTORSPORT - Citroen C2
Michael Kowalski (GER) - Kowalski Racing - Ford Fiesta
Yury Krauchuk (BLR) - GLATZEL RACING - Ford Fiesta ST
Ralf Glatzel (GER) -GLATZEL RACING - Ford Fiesta 1,6 16V

Division 3:
tba - Heide Motorsport - MINI JCW Challenge
Bernhard Wagner (GER) - Frensch Power Motorsport - MINI JCW Challenge
Thomas Tekaat (GER) - Besaplast Team Dombek - MINI JCW Challenge
Henry Littig (GER) - Besaplast Team Dombek - MINI JCW Challenge
Steve Kirsch (GER) - Frensch Power Motorsport - MINI JCW Challenge
Kai Jordan (GER) - tba - MINI JCW Challenge
Michael Heide (GER) - Heide Motorsport - MINI JCW Challenge
Lisa Christin Brunner (GER) - IMC Motorsport - MINI JCW Challenge
Victoria Fross (GER) - IMC Motorsport - MINI JCW Challenge

That's a very conservative list. I know of at least two more Div.1 projects (one Peugeot, one BMW E90 S2000) and there was talk about 14 Minis having signed up for Div.3 already.

[AxelF]

I think, its not very interesting, to see so many Minis from the Cup inside the Procar-field. They should race in their own race.
At least they are faster than Div. 2 and maybe not very much slower than Div. 1?????

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by AxelF

I think, its not very interesting, to see so many Minis from the Cup inside the Procar-field. They should race in their own race.
At least they are faster than Div. 2 and maybe not very much slower than Div. 1?????

Well, the Mini series has folded and Procar needs the cars to prop up their field and to spread track rental fees, so there's no way around that for the time being, though I hope that they'll eventually bop some other cars into Div.3.

[somebodysb2]

What a pathetic list. Rikli Honda gone, Engstler BMW gone, Yaco Toyota gone..

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by somebodysb2

What a pathetic list. Rikli Honda gone, Engstler BMW gone, Yaco Toyota gone..

Except for Engstler they are all LONG gone... and it still is a provisional entry list, so there will be some more cars to come. Reading through some interviews and articles I'm up to at least three more in Div.1 by now.

[AxelF]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Except for Engstler they are all LONG gone... and it still is a provisional entry list, so there will be some more cars to come. Reading through some interviews and articles I'm up to at least three more in Div.1 by now.

Maybe still to expensive to run a S2000 car in an championship, that is not very well supported in media etc.

By the way - Procar is already running within a race weekend, as far as i know, around ADAC GT Masters (german GT3 championship). And there are also other racing series at this weekend. So maybe only time schedule problems to have a mini cup race too.

I think more, that they want to say "we have 40 cars on the grid"....

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by AxelF

Maybe still to expensive to run a S2000 car in an championship, that is not very well supported in media etc.

By the way - Procar is already running within a race weekend, as far as i know, around ADAC GT Masters (german GT3 championship). And there are also other racing series at this weekend. So maybe only time schedule problems to have a mini cup race too.

I think more, that they want to say "we have 40 cars on the grid"....

Some good points there. S2000 was definitely not the way of the future, esp since the old 2 litre NA cars were beginning to get quite long in the tooth, and the only replacement for them from FIA classes would have been the even more expensive TC1 & 2 cars. Hence the move to the homegrown Division 1T rules.

I think without these the series' future would really have been in doubt as fields would simply have dwindled away due to the lack of cars and budgets, much of which is actually tied up in Germany's many GT series.

I don't think bringing in the Minis had anything to do with cleaning up the weekend schedules, if anything the GT Masters package was suffering from a lack of support races.

The Mini series lost the backing from BMW and the teams were left without a place to run, so that's why they joined Procar. Also, for the series it's not so much about having 40 cars or more but about eveb getting out of the teens, something they didn't manage very often (if at all) last year. With track rental fees being what they are that was likely another reason why the series' old class structure wasn't viabke anymore.