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Old 18 Nov 2015, 19:59 (Ref:3591330)   #26
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In my opinion, the period chosen really gives a great dis-service to Roberto Ravaglia, who was for me the greatest touring car driver of his era.
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Old 18 Dec 2015, 17:07 (Ref:3598611)   #27
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For me, golden era starts in 1987 until 1992, especially for germans.

So i would like to include Klaus Ludwig too.

But the best touring car driver in this era for me was Cecotto. Of course Aiello was very good, but of course was driving in the best cars at that time (Peugeot 406 was the car to beat, also later Audi TT had some advantages). Cecotto drove sometimes like a god, was a genius in tactics and also a racer like Senna.

Giovanardi must be really good, seeing his championships. But as i was watching mostly german series at that time, he was not seeable...

Menu was driving in original DTM, but was not that good (maybe because of car/team, he was already BMW factory junior.

Pirro had the best car when winning, before was not driving like a real champion.

Soper is still one of my favourite drivers, because he made no compromises when driving. He could win everything, or maybe destroy his car 3 times a weekend.

Winkelhock is really a good mate, this is maybe more important than his driving.

Biela was never a real hero, he lacks a bit of personality.

Ravaglia was biggest genius in driving, but also very shy in a way. So i could not have real fan-relation to him.
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Old 18 Dec 2015, 17:54 (Ref:3598622)   #28
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Talking about Italy, Ravaglia and Giovanardi were the very best drivers. Maybe Ravaglia has not to be considered successful in the D2-era, because he won the most driving Group A cars, but he was one of the best drivers in Touring Cars history. Pirro was also great, but Audi A4 was an incredible car. I also loved (and love nowadays) Morbidelli, but he was so unlucky!

Aïello, Winkelhock and Biela were also great drivers. I want to remember also Matt Neal, who never ran manufacturer cars (in the D2-era) but equally took excellent results.
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Old 18 Dec 2015, 18:35 (Ref:3598637)   #29
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Talking about Italy, Ravaglia and Giovanardi were the very best drivers. Maybe Ravaglia has not to be considered successful in the D2-era, because he won the most driving Group A cars, but he was one of the best drivers in Touring Cars history. Pirro was also great, but Audi A4 was an incredible car. I also loved (and love nowadays) Morbidelli, but he was so unlucky!

Aïello, Winkelhock and Biela were also great drivers. I want to remember also Matt Neal, who never ran manufacturer cars (in the D2-era) but equally took excellent results.
Pirro was a great touring car driver. He was as quick as anyone in the 635 and M3 before his supertouring days.
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Old 18 Dec 2015, 19:26 (Ref:3598648)   #30
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Pirro was a great touring car driver. He was as quick as anyone in the 635 and M3 before his supertouring days.
Same speech I did for Ravaglia. Considering only D2, Pirro drove only Audi and Ravaglia won only one title, but they won races and titles in other categories anymore.
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Old 18 Dec 2015, 20:09 (Ref:3598655)   #31
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I'm afraid that the golden age, whatever that means, has to be the 1960s and into the 70s, when you had real drivers behind the steering-wheels and none of the driver aids that even existed in the 90s.

When a driver like Jim Clark completed a race at Brands Hatch in a Lotus Cortina with a broken seat and holding on to the roll-bar with his right hand to keep him in place and driving for virtually the whole race just using his left hand. Incidentally, he also won the race against the strongest of rivals such as Sir John Whitmore, Graham Hill and if I remember correctly, Roy Salvadori plus many, many more other brilliant drivers.

There were so many phenomenal drivers during those years, but unfortunately my failing memory doesn't allow me to name them at this time. Hopefully someone can step in to help me.
Disagree about 600% with this.

The Golden Era for Touring Car Racing was between 88 and ~00.
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Old 19 Dec 2015, 16:24 (Ref:3598797)   #32
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Disagree about 600% with this.

The Golden Era for Touring Car Racing was between 88 and ~00.
I think the period '83-92 personally before the world became obsessed with Max Power racing.
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Old 19 Dec 2015, 21:27 (Ref:3598832)   #33
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1992-1993 btcc was at it's best
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Old 2 Jan 2016, 16:53 (Ref:3601614)   #34
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I think an honourable mention should go to Peter Kox, who had enormous potential.
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Old 2 Jan 2016, 18:09 (Ref:3601626)   #35
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Yes he was very successful in Europe IIRC and the lap records he did in the development BMW were phenomenal. Of course it took him time to get used to FWD in 98, so it took him til 99 to get that win
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Old 2 Jan 2016, 19:05 (Ref:3601633)   #36
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Dani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Aiello would be my no.1
rest of the podium is hard to put, maybe 5-6 drivers
i see not many put Rydell upthere but should be considered too, the Volvo years were great
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Old 5 Jan 2016, 10:17 (Ref:3602192)   #37
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I would chose Steve Soper and Frank Beila but when thinking of a third I could not help wondering what Jim Clark could have done in cars of that era.

You cannot really mix the different periods of course and as someone who followed the sport through all these years I must say that touring cars were always great entertainment no matter what the rules.

Tony Llanfranchi winning two championships in a Moskovitch, Gerry Marshall in Big Bertha, ah, those Capris! Often the cars were the stars as teams battled to find an edge under the prevailing rules.
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Old 5 Jan 2016, 14:46 (Ref:3602245)   #38
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Toughest? Soper.

Best engineer, Rouse.

Most entertaining? Winkelhock. Maybe Tim aswell.

Most melodramatic Tie between Neal and Plato.

Most stressed out? Menu

Most relaxed? Rydell to the point of almost getting sacked by big Tom

Did the most with his talent? Cleland

Did the least with his talent. Bintcliffe!

Most underrated? Radisich and perhaps Hoy.

Most overrated/ Kelvin Burt! Anthony Reid.

Dirtiest, tie between Reid and Bintcliffe.

Best? For me probably Soper
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Old 5 Jan 2016, 15:33 (Ref:3602258)   #39
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Let me have a go
Toughest: Soper
Best Engineer: Rouse
Best Development Driver: Leslie
Most Entertaining: Cleland/Reid/Watts
Most Melodramatic: Menu?
Most Stressed Out: Muller?
Most Relaxed: Rydell, apart from that one time with Reid!
Did the most with his talent: Cleland
Did the least: Bintcliffe
Most underrated: Radisich and O'Dor, probably the two unluckiest as well
Most overrated: Bintcliffe
Dirtiest: Bintcliffe/Ravaglia
Cleanest: Cleland/Radisich/Leslie
Best: 1) Menue 2) Aiello 3) Cleland
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Old 5 Jan 2016, 20:22 (Ref:3602342)   #40
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Toughest? Soper.

Best engineer, Rouse.

Most entertaining? Winkelhock. Maybe Tim aswell.

Most melodramatic Tie between Neal and Plato.

Most stressed out? Menu

Most relaxed? Rydell to the point of almost getting sacked by big Tom

Did the most with his talent? Cleland

Did the least with his talent. Bintcliffe!

Most underrated? Radisich and perhaps Hoy.

Most overrated/ Kelvin Burt! Anthony Reid.

Dirtiest, tie between Reid and Bintcliffe.

Best? For me probably Soper
Good one! Hard to disagree with!!
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Old 6 Jan 2016, 03:52 (Ref:3602416)   #41
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cruizn4abruisn should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Toughest? Soper

Best engineer? Rouse

Most entertaining? Winkelhock

Most melodramatic? Muller

Most stressed out? Plato

Most relaxed? Biela

Did the most with his talent? Aiello

Did the least with his talent? Kox

Most underrated? Odor

Most overrated? Muller or Neal

Dirtiest? Thompson or Plato

Best? Aiello, Biela or Soper
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Old 6 Jan 2016, 07:26 (Ref:3602431)   #42
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Reid overrated?!!

What's that based on exactly?
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Old 6 Jan 2016, 17:27 (Ref:3602578)   #43
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Reid overrated?!!

What's that based on exactly?
Agreed! A strong, hard racer well into his forties.

My favourite driver of the era, if not necessarily the best, was Frank Biela, but he went on to even greater achievements in sportscars.
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Old 6 Jan 2016, 22:08 (Ref:3602635)   #44
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And who can forget Reid challenging for the title in an independent MG in 2004, due to his usual hard charging against the dominant Astras. He was IMHO better than Plato and Neal
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Old 7 Jan 2016, 10:42 (Ref:3602752)   #45
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"Golden Era" is very subjective. For me, the Group A years from '82 are my Golden Era, especially the long distance ETC races plus Bathurst (when Australia went to Group A in '85) where different disciplines were required compared with the shorter format series.

Best, in my opinion, can be picked from:

Walkinshaw
Percy
Brock
Ravaglia
Brancatelli
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Old 7 Jan 2016, 17:38 (Ref:3602839)   #46
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I'm too young to have watched the long-distance ETCC events, but I prefer my touring car races shorter and punchier (though I deplore some of the more lurid panel-bashing of the BTCC, and I'm looking at you here, Jason Plato and Matt Neal). Leave long-distance races to the sportscar boys (and girls).
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Old 7 Jan 2016, 21:26 (Ref:3602902)   #47
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I'm too young to have watched the long-distance ETCC events, but I prefer my touring car races shorter and punchier (though I deplore some of the more lurid panel-bashing of the BTCC, and I'm looking at you here, Jason Plato and Matt Neal). Leave long-distance races to the sportscar boys (and girls).
Noo. 500km TC races were definitely the Bees dangly bits (ie, best of both worlds). And I like my touring cars multi-class just like being on the real road, big banger bosses cars, quick repmobiles and the people going shopping all mixed up together. *Sigh* I miss those days.

I have a feeling I posted in this thread way back, but in case I didn't:

Ravaglia. A complete class act. Extremely fast, very reliable, fair yet ruthless in traffic, and a gentleman to boot.
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Old 8 Jan 2016, 19:01 (Ref:3603145)   #48
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Gianni Giudici was also a gentleman and a great driver
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Old 8 Jan 2016, 19:16 (Ref:3603152)   #49
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why no love for Pirro ?

he was a great in the 80s too !! not just the 90s

he had some great results in Schnitzer team in the old 635 and then in BMW M3 starting from 1987 to about 1992

for example he won the 1990 Spa 24 Hours race
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Old 8 Jan 2016, 19:18 (Ref:3603154)   #50
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as for Frank Biela , ironically he won the french series in 93 and BTCC 1996 but he never won the german series

he came very close in 1995 but having a DNF because he was involved in the fatal accident of Keith O'Dor did cost him the title

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3fWlVZ0mAI


since many races are in full on youtube I can tell that the golden super touring era lasted until 97 , 98 began to decline and grids started to drop in all series , STW, BTCC, Italian Superturismo , etc

- the North American Touring series was cancelled at end of 97
- South African Series was cancelled at end of 96
- Spanish series after having some strong fields in 94-96 was cacelled at start of 97 season after 2 races due to lack of entries

the French series lost all manufacturer support after 95 but it somehow survived with privateers and allowing all sorts of Group A leftovers, rally kit cars etc

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