[BTCC] Vauxhall confirms BTCC withdrawal at end of season

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by redshoes

You need to factor in the UK being generally more expensive. A season in UK Clio Cup will cost you around twice the figure you've quoted, although that said your BTCC figure won't get you into a top team.

Arguments over exact figures aside I agree with your point. There's a huge difference in costs between a top one-make series like Clios or SEATs and BTCC, just as Jonathan Adam whose been struggling to make the jump for years.

Well, the Btcc budget I told you about is from the interview I had with Harry Vaulkhard, so we're talking about Tempus Sport
As for the Clio Uk, you also have to say that in GB you have more race weekends, while we have 6 racing weekends here, so that's where the price differences come from.

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I'm sure the price of the S2000 cars has increased now though, quite by how much im not sure, perhaps someone can quote me a price for a 2009 BMW S2000?

I have no idea about a BMW 320si E90, but I seem to recall that the Honda Accords that N Technology used last year were up for sale @ 180,000€. Definitely too much. Things should be done in a way so that if I want to go racing with the mechanic that works in my hometown, I have to be able to buy the car that has a reasonable price, put it in a truck and go on the track with 1 mechanice, do the race and come back, without any complications like manufacturer support, engineers and so on. Of course works teams could still be there, but if the s2000 were more like cup racing it would be much more fun, as we'd have super grids of 40 cars, maybe. Funny how they all forgot the essence of this sport: FUN. It's not speed, that is incidental, but we need to have fun, and to do so we need to have super grids and cars that are cheap to use and develop, so that I must be able to buy an Alfa Romeo 149, for instance, put the safety stuff on, 4 shock absorbers and whatever else that's needed and put it on the track. Well, not exactly as simple as that, but something similar, you know...

[mountainstar]

I used to be a big fan of the BTCC back in the heydays of the 1990's but this S2000 deal I just can't get into. I've tried watching some BTCC and WTCC races and it doesn't do anything for me.

Rather than going smaller I think we need to go the other way and bring something with some noise and power and amp it up a bit. I thought the 1994 BTCC was perfect with little or no aero and 300+hp.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

When S2000 was first introduced, the idea was to produce cars that cost between £90,000 and £120,000, compared to ST which at its peak in 1999 - 2000 had cars costing £300,000 alone. I'm sure the price of the S2000 cars has increased now though, quite by how much im not sure, perhaps someone can quote me a price for a 2009 BMW S2000?

I think we could get cars down to £50-60,000 by standardising more parts, using more production parts etc.

I think costs Clio Cup have also increased a lot compared to 5 or 10 years ago.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Rather than going smaller I think we need to go the other way and bring something with some noise and power and amp it up a bit. I thought the 1994 BTCC was perfect with little or no aero and 300+hp.

Good for the show, not good for the drivers. If we are to have more drivers, we need to reduce the costs. It can be high power cars, but they have to be cheap, that's the main thing IMO.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Good for the show, not good for the drivers. If we are to have more drivers, we need to reduce the costs. It can be high power cars, but they have to be cheap, that's the main thing IMO.

Yes and for it to be cheaper and encourage greater variety of cars, the regs will have to be closer to standard spec, no silly and uncessesary aero spoilers and flared wheel arches etc and alllow freedom on engine sizes permitted.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes and for it to be cheaper and encourage greater variety of cars, the regs will have to be closer to standard spec, no silly and uncessesary aero spoilers and flared wheel arches etc and alllow freedom on engine sizes permitted.

If the spoilers are standardized we can have sporty looking cars that are still cheap. And the engine sizes allowed should be 1.6 and 2.0, with 2 different classes competing on the same grid. I agree anyway that the cars have to be more similar to the production cars.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

If the spoilers are standardized we can have sporty looking cars that are still cheap. And the engine sizes allowed should be 1.6 and 2.0, with 2 different classes competing on the same grid. I agree anyway that the cars have to be more similar to the production cars.

Well sports versions of stock models have spoliers and stuff as standard yes.

Why 1.6 & 2.0 cc's only though??

There needs to be flexibility for bigger engines as well, particularly if a series wants to attract more prestige models in.

[gregc]

You're never going to get huge grids in the BTCC, simply because each circuit has an upper limit on grid sizes for safety reasons. If memory serves, it's 26-28 cars max, so we actually can't have grids much larger than we have now.

I agree that costs need to be controlled, but I think the prime focus there should be on limiting the aero options. S2000 already has a standardised rear wing, and there are parts of the regs that limit things like wheelarch sizes, but there is still too much scope for a homologation special (things like the extended bumper on the Vectra that allows for the larger splitter, although that got through thanks to the local homologation regs that the MSA use rather than S2000).

I don't see any need to change the basic rules though, it produces good, close racing and I'd suggest that the fact that crowds at the circuit have been on the up for the last few years since S2000 was introduced would support that.

Just because Vauxhall have pulled out doesn't mean we need kneejerk changes. And if anyone can keep a race series strong during the current downturn, I'd say Alan Gow can.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Good for the show, not good for the drivers. If we are to have more drivers, we need to reduce the costs. It can be high power cars, but they have to be cheap, that's the main thing IMO.

Well if I understand correctly the WRC will be using super 2000 Plus rules shortly which will use turbo 2.0 engines. So why not go that route? Strip the spoilers off the cars and run them with 2.0 liter turbos?

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Well if I understand correctly the WRC will be using super 2000 Plus rules shortly which will use turbo 2.0 engines. So why not go that route? Strip the spoilers off the cars and run them with 2.0 liter turbos?

WRC won't go to 2.0 turbos. Super 2000 Plus will appear to be Super 2000 but with different aero kits. I don't think a simple matter of stripping off the spoilers would work, as that would make the road car's aero a little too important. I would suggest that flat floors could be brought in and possibly a lower minimum ride height, as that would be a cheap way of improving lap times and spectacle - as part of a new set of rules. Super 2000 is here to stay for the short and short-medium term, but beyond that no-one knows.

[chunterer]

What we need to re-develop interest is not spec regs but very simple stuff!!

We need to go back to basics!!! We need regs for chassis as per road model, shell as per road model, mild suspension mods, uprated brakes/discs, some 'blueprinting' of engines but the engine has to come from the actual production car that it is a racing version of, not any old engine from somehwhere else in the model range and none of this spec engine rubbish!! Maybe have rev limiters but try and have long life engines to reduce rebuild costs etc.

With more modified production regs we could have a BMW 5 or 6 against a Vauxhall VXR8; Jaguar S Type; Lexus; Audi S6 etc in a big class; and a load of hot hatches/super coupes in the second class like the Civics; Meganes; Focuses; Golfs etc.

That would please everyone surely?

[awrb]

Originally Posted by gregc

I agree that costs need to be controlled, but I think the prime focus there should be on limiting the aero options. S2000 already has a standardised rear wing, and there are parts of the regs that limit things like wheelarch sizes, but there is still too much scope for a homologation special (things like the extended bumper on the Vectra that allows for the larger splitter, although that got through thanks to the local homologation regs that the MSA use rather than S2000).

But surely a limiting the aero options would mean more chance of homologation specials, because if you can't change what's already there, you want what's already there to be good.

So would a bit more scope in the aero department be any good? And what about doing what the BTCC tried with the BTC regs and Palmer tried with that (rubbish) T1 idea and make the bodywork more exciting. Bigish spoilers and some kind of bodykits, but not tasteless like BTC and Maxpower type stuff, just enough to set them apart from the road cars while not affecting the shape.

Whether it helps the cars or not, it will make them more exciting to look at and bring more fans in.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by chunterer

What we need to re-develop interest is not spec regs but very simple stuff!!

We need to go back to basics!!! We need regs for chassis as per road model, shell as per road model, mild suspension mods, uprated brakes/discs, some 'blueprinting' of engines but the engine has to come from the actual production car that it is a racing version of, not any old engine from somehwhere else in the model range and none of this spec engine rubbish!! Maybe have rev limiters but try and have long life engines to reduce rebuild costs etc.

With more modified production regs we could have a BMW 5 or 6 against a Vauxhall VXR8; Jaguar S Type; Lexus; Audi S6 etc in a big class; and a load of hot hatches/super coupes in the second class like the Civics; Meganes; Focuses; Golfs etc.

That would please everyone surely?

Well maybe just adopt the GT300 regs from Japan and do that.

I don't think spec stuff works for top level series. Too boring.

With the loss of the last factory team in the BTCC it will be interesting to see what Alan Gow does. He's a smart guy so I'm sure he'll figure something out.

[KA]

Originally Posted by awrb

But surely a limiting the aero options would mean more chance of homologation specials, because if you can't change what's already there, you want what's already there to be good.

There's an easy way to legislate out homologation specials- you set the minimum production number high enough that it's not worth a manufacturer's while going that route. Thinking back to Group A- the minimum production run for homologation was 5000 which still allowed homologation specials- M3, Sierra Cosworth etc, but the fatal flaw was the 'Evolution' clause that allowed major upgrades (eg basic Cosworth to RS500) to be homologated on the strength of 10% of that- ie just 500 cars....

If you tell the manufacturers that sure, they can homologate a trick aero kit etc, but they've got to put it on say 10,000 cars or more, then there should be less chance of an 'arms race' of extreme homologation specials- after all, they've got to sell the things....

[awrb]

True, in todays climate that would definitely work KA.

Why do we have the rule that say's more than three doors? I don't see the point really, surely it will just put people off, like Volvo for instance who don't as yet make a five door C30. So why does that stand in S2000.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Well maybe just adopt the GT300 regs from Japan and do that.

GT300 is just that - a GT class. The cars are mainly models found in the British GT championship (Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Porsches, 350Zs and the like. The only touring cars are some silhouette Toyota Corollas and a Lexus IS350.

I don't think there are a major issue with having option parts, provided it's bodywork not building silly engines. That's why I'd go for production based two litre turbo units with fixed power in modified production chassis with bodywork that makes them look like the cars mean business.

[gregc]

Yep. making the homologation numbers high should work. For local homologation in the BTCC you currently only need 250 examples, which obviously made it pretty simple for VXR. Significantly upping that number would be a good move.

The 3/5 door thing is pretty murky at the moment. The regs say 5 door, but the STCC have locally homologated the 3 door C30 and now the Scirocco too. Under the agreement between BTCC and STCC that makes the C30 and Scirocco automatically eligible for the UK series. Add to that the fact that the C30 was allowed to run at the Brands round of the WTCC last season, and we're getting rapidly to the stage where the 5 door "rule" is pretty much irrelevant.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by gregc

Yep. making the homologation numbers high should work. Significantly upping that number would be a good move.

The 3/5 door thing is pretty murky at the moment. The regs say 5 door, but the STCC have locally homologated the 3 door C30 and now the Scirocco too - we're getting rapidly to the stage where the 5 door "rule" is pretty much irrelevant.

Yep, as you and KA suggest, it has to be either high homolgation, or very strict insistence that the race version has to be a mass produced standard range road car (but obviously with the permitted regulation modifications) Either would be very good way of restricting specials like M3, RS500 etc that are cracking cars but Series killers!

2/3/4/5 door doesn't matter, as long as it's got seats in front and (decent sized) ones in the rear so in that way we avoid 'con' tricks like Porsche 911's and RX7's in the old days!!

However surely everyone would like to see bigger engined/bigger cars as well as medium/small cars again?

Honest answers: Can anyone really say that a series that only allows a bunch of Lacetti's, Leon's, Civics and Clio's is anywhere near as appealing as one that has 'big bangers' on show as well?

A 2 (maybe even 3) class system; over 3000cc; 2000-3000cc and upto 2000cc would suit entrants and fans I suspect.....

[awrb]

The problem with having different classes is that the bottom one's will generally drop out, and just look weak. The TV coverage will only focus on class one (or just Plato, if he's in it) and no one will bother with the lower ones.

We need regs where a team can go to a local dealer, buy a car, then convert it for less than the value of an average car. That way we'll have loads of different models. I'm just not sure how would be best to do this.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by awrb

The problem with having different classes is that the bottom one's will generally drop out, and just look weak. The TV coverage will only focus on class one (or just Plato, if he's in it) and no one will bother with the lower ones.

Well in these financially difficult times, theoretically a small class entrant could approach a sponsor and say 'I can win a big series for not a lot of your money.'

Certain manufacturers would be attracted to a smaller class if that's the size of car they wished to promote!

I don't think TV would be a problem. For example, I recall FIA GT coverage of recent times sometime infuriatingly covering GT2 scraps instead of the GT1 cars.......

Also didn't John Cleland and Chris Hodgetts used to get decent exposure in the 80's in their Astra and Corolla even when a lot of eyes were on 'Formula RS500'?

[gregc]

Originally Posted by chunterer

However surely everyone would like to see bigger engined/bigger cars as well as medium/small cars again?

Honest answers: Can anyone really say that a series that only allows a bunch of Lacetti's, Leon's, Civics and Clio's is anywhere near as appealing as one that has 'big bangers' on show as well?

I suspect I'm going to be in the minority here, but for the BTCC in particular, no - I don't really want the big cars/big engines. To me the appeal of the series is partly the fact that the cars are ones that I can relate to, and whose roadgoing equivalents are ones I could realistically be driving. If it was 5 series/E Class type cars with big engines then I can't relate to it so well. I also don't believe the racing itself would be so good with bigger cars - in my spectating experience bigger cars = less exciting racing. That last bit is subjective, of course.

I'm not a fan of multi class racing either to be honest - as awrb has said, you end up with all the TV coverage on the top class, plus the casual viewer potentially gets confused and for a series that's aiming for more than the hardcore motorsport fan that's not a good thing.

[awrb]

What kind of things can be made standard for this kind of car? Suspension? Transmission? And what can be left as production? Could the BTCC say 'all you can change is.., and you've got to leave the rest alone'

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by gregc

I also don't believe the racing itself would be so good with bigger cars - in my spectating experience bigger cars = less exciting racing. That last bit is subjective, of course.

I agree with where you're coming from here.

The Clios and Cupras have always provided good entertainment for the BTCC support races, while running smaller cars/engines. On the other hand, to the casual viewer, the Carerra Cup has usually provided the least entertaining of races. (Time to join the queue for the toilet/drinks/food while their on usually!!)

Keeping the current regs has allowed multiple makes to be eligible for homologation.

Already we have; BMW, SEAT, Chevrolet, Alfa, Vauxhall, Honda, Peugeot, Volvo, Lexus, Lada, Ford etc...

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Keeping the current regs has allowed multiple makes to be eligible for homologation.

Already we have; BMW, SEAT, Chevrolet, Alfa, Vauxhall, Honda, Peugeot, Volvo, Lexus, Lada, Ford etc...

More listed in this thread

I'm struggling to think of a 2-litre model that isn't on that list.

[crmalcolm]

I know that a high number of cars are in the 2-3 litre bracket, but most of these have a 2.0 within their marque.

A change to 3 litre plus would, I think, preclude the majority of manufacturers from providing suitable cars.