[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Brake dust

Akrapovic - wasn't there some ifno that suggested Porsche was not in favour of some of those 2020 regs? The idea of the first kilometer after a pit stop must be run under electric is both contrived and lame.

The ACO/FIA got the regs right in 2014 - let the engineers detrmine the best way to design their cars.

There was suggestions that they didn't like it, but that didn't mimic what they said in the press. They said it fitted Porsches vision of the future. But yeah, there were reports they didn't like it.

[Maelochs]

To me, now this is all just more entertainment. Sick entertainment, like watching a really low-budget slasher film with a lot of really gory special effects and no plot, playing at 4 a.m. some Sunday morning when insomnia won’t let my body sleep but my brain has shut off anyway

ILMC/WEC has been such a rollercoaster of insanity, driven in a lot of ways by the swollen FIA/ACO ego, and skewered fatally by the twin tines of the finance/politics pitchfork ... I hated seeing Audi leave, and Peugeot, and now Porsche ... and soon, probably, Toyota, though they might last another few years doing no development and just collecting empty P1 titles ... and you know, in back rooms and secret channels around the world, FIA and ACO negotiators are promising, lying, begging and wheedling to get another manufacturer to waste huge sums to keep the “World Championship” designation ...

I have to give FIA/ACO a huge compliment though ... they have cut the time it taskes to almost totally destroy a viable and often wonderful racing series by half. I would have expected them to take more than a decade to destroy WEC .... it barely took them six seasons.

Bravo!

[chernaudi]

The ACO's statement IMO shows how blind and ignorant they are. We've known for at least two months that there was an undeniable chance that this could happen.

Just shows how much they really don't have their finger on the pulse of what they're doing. And IMO, you can't blame the FIA for this this time. All the people who are on the record going to bat and running the WEC are all ACO people. I'll bet you that Lindsay Owen-Jones, though he has the FIA initialism in his job title, is probably actually in the pay of the ACO.

I saw the chance that this could come for the ACO back in 2014. There was the potential for something great, but also the potential to get it wrong. They gambled on keeping Audi and Toyota, and getting Porsche. And they still managed to blow it.

Rising costs and lack of stability have a lot to answer for. If the budgets were halved, I'd bet that Audi and Porsche might still be in the WEC. But the ACO's greed and ignorance have a lot to answer for with Porsche leaving as much as anything, including VAG wanting to wash their hands of the dieselgate crap.

[insane014]

Originally Posted by Alex Langheck

Disappointing but expected news. Part of me thinks this is on the ACO; they never learn. Budgets for the Hybrids were unsustainable - for what is 1 race (despite being a World Championship). Time for them to pull their finger out and sort out a proper LMP1 class - that is affordable......



FE is ticking the boxes for the Manufacturers; green, relatively small budget, and a growing media interest. What other new series has gained so many Manufacturers in such a small time? All that despite it being deadly dull.....

It was Porsche's decision to spend that much money and barely beat Toyota who has 3 to 4 times smaller budget. Or someone was money laundering like crazy there in VAG.

[insane014]

Originally Posted by Brake dust

Akrapovic - wasn't there some ifno that suggested Porsche was not in favour of some of those 2020 regs? The idea of the first kilometer after a pit stop must be run under electric is both contrived and lame.

The ACO/FIA got the regs right in 2014 - let the engineers detrmine the best way to design their cars.

Electrification is coming and WEC will not survive if they can't offer some sort of EV racing in the future. Problem is in the gap of technology right now. EV is not ready or relevant for long and fast tracks so they can't slap the LeMans title on future road going EV projects just yet. Instead they all flea to spec series for marketing purposes. Once FE opens up manufacturers with most EV tech success will want that LeMans win in EV braggin tag on their product so few of them will jump back to WEC.

Who knows what happens by then, maybe prototypes as we know them would be replaced by something that resembles production vehicles for purposes of marketing.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by marcel82

I think they are right to feel like Porsche stabbed them in the back. the departure of Porsche will cost them a lot of marketability, and may even cause Toyota to leave as well, making them even more unattractive to other manufacturers.

Or more attractive? For 2020. As long as Toyota stays and the series itself remains financially stable (surviving 2018-2019 with privateers and GTE show), by all accounts this should play into Peugeot's hands. Yes, more teams the merrier, but the biggest obstacle was cost. The two biggest spenders are now gone and 2020 regs simply can't happen now as proposed (if they do, ACO deserves the eventual total collapse). And it seems like Peugeot and Toyota would find more common ground without Porsche.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by insane014

It was Porsche's decision to spend that much money and barely beat Toyota who has 3 to 4 times smaller budget. Or someone was money laundering like crazy there in VAG.

I don't know how you got that "3 to 4 times smaller" thing. Also, TMG has its own wind tunnel, may I remind you.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by deggis

The two biggest spenders are now gone and 2020 regs simply can't happen now as proposed (if they do, ACO deserves the eventual total collapse). And it seems like Peugeot and Toyota would find more common ground without Porsche.

I hate to be atavistic ... but I wouldn't mind a top class where cars had internal combustion engines and were affordable enough that a lot of different teams could join P1.

I could not care less what F1 does ...they are only "racing" at short spurts of time during any event. WEC doesn't need to compete with F1 ... and it will cost a ton no matter what. Why not have at least relatively affordable cars?

All WEC's top class really needs to be is fast. It needs to be fast like it was 30 years ago ... when the Renault A443 was hitting 240 mph with what, a 2.2-liter engine? With modern aero ... LMP2 is already ridiculously quick. Add some power, lower the weight ...

[bobec]

Completely agree on the ACO being prideful, greedy, blind, etc. Their statement is full of both pain and vain, and I think a bunch of empty and vague promises (remember their statement after Audi left - "one manufacturer leaves, new ones arrive" or smth like that). And this is sad and a problem, because they have to change something, instead of being bitter and bs-ing some more.

At the same time, I believe both Porsche and Audi did leave a year too early. They should have made their announcements as they did, but Audi should have left after 2017, and Porsche after 2018.

Really curious what really happened at the new regulations meeting and what Porsche really think about it. Porsche also had a problem with the ACO over the Toyota double diffuser clarification, while Audi had an obvious problem with the EoT. One has to wonder how big a factor those disputes were for the VAG teams' decision to leave so abruptly.

[chernaudi]

I think that politics--at both VAG and between Audi Sport and Porsche vs the ACO--have a lot more to do with this than anyone in the know is letting on. I think that some people, such as journalist, are trying to be fair and not drag anyone's name though the mud.

Dieselgate is just the opt out, the public justification. I can't say that it didn't have anything to do with it, but I think that some people are embellishing how much it factored in. You have to remember that VAG are still making huge profits even after setting aside $25 billion to settle the dieselgate lawsuits. And as we well know now, they're not alone in screwing over governments out of tax dollars and consumers out of cash. Everyone and their brother is now being accused of such things in Germany and other parts of the EU. And also in the US even, with Chrysler and GM being the targets of lawsuits.

One can say why leave now when Audi Sport and Porsche did. They both had one season left on their contracts, and those seasons were probably already paid for.

I think that political wrangling within VAG itself--such as being seen as doing the right thing as far as washing their hands of the dieselgate stuff--and between the ACO over rules, costs, and other political horsecrap has a lot to do with what's happened, and probably why the ACO seemed so confident after Audi let and seem shocked at Porsche leaving.

But then again, the ACO have been full of NASCAR/Brian France levels of hubris for quite a while. But they were also quite happy to follow the gravy train until VAG called time.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

But then again, the ACO have been full of NASCAR/Brian France levels of hubris for quite a while. But they were also quite happy to follow the gravy train until VAG called time.

It's almost like someone at VAG suddenly woke up and asked, "Why the frog have we been paying billions for all these years to support this one racing series which provides us no ROI?"

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by TF110

At least in lmp1, they can do what they're quoted as saying they can (but really can't) do in F-E. The only thing you can develop there is the drivetrain. No battery, no chassis, no aero etc. I really feel like it's just jumping on a bandwagon of appearing green for cheap.

The reason Agag gave for retaining the spec chassis was so that factories would actually spend money on drivetrain developments, not 15mm wide aero bits that always end up spending classes out of existence.

Originally Posted by TF110

Lotterer to Toyota next year

Make my day.

[Richard C]

I have been relatively quiet in the sportscar forum recently. My thoughts...

* Regardless of manufacturer involvement, and my love of technology, I have to say I was not particular happy with it as a whole. I feel it was likely reaching too far in some ways and was going to be expensive even if an interesting engineering exercise.

* I made sure I went to see a WEC race in the US to see Porsche race because I knew it wouldn't last. Its unfortunate that I didn't make it to LeMans.

* As the non-hybrid class of LMP1 struggled and the hit to private constructors with the standardization on a few manufactures in LMP2, I think many predicted the that when this day comes it will be tough one for the immediate future of sport and I agree. Lack of non-hybrid LMP1 and the classic chassis manufactures made to feel unwelcome and locked into cost control designs.

* I fully expect Toyota to leave soon unless someone else jumps in to be competition.

* I hope teams jump into fill the void with non-hybrid LMP1 cars. In fact, I think the best thing now for LMP1 would be for Toyota to leave so that the privateer LMP1 teams know they will be fighting for the overall win. Not having a factory car around should be a large incentive.

* It was good while it lasted.

Richard

[chernaudi]

Pretty much agreed. And I felt that there were cracks in the facade as early as 2014. I hoped for the best, and it was good while it lasted, but it wasn't meant to last.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by bobec

I don't know how you got that "3 to 4 times smaller" thing. Also, TMG has its own wind tunnel, may I remind you.

Because they spend a quarter of their F1 budget (which was $300million in 2009). It's gone up since then, but they spend less than half of what Porsche and Audi did. 3-4 times is a reach though

As for privateers... they have all the chance in the world to win. Did we not witness that this year? ByKolles would have won but for hitting something on the very first lap. And those guys have a chassis that dates back nearly a decade. Someone comes in with a little bit of development and some rule breaks, they'll challenge for the win. Even without reliability issues hitting Toyota.

[Lizardfolk]

Originally Posted by AoB Special Stage

The reason Agag gave for retaining the spec chassis was so that factories would actually spend money on drivetrain developments, not 15mm wide aero bits that always end up spending classes out of existence.

Exactly, it's not like Formula E is intended to be spec in the first place. Every season something internal gets opened up for development and by the 5th Season (which is soon) they want to get rid of car swaps completely and open up battery development.

Now is probably the right time to join FE as some crucial parts are opening up and the more interesting bits of electric technology that we need (i.e. battery) are opening up soon.

I don't necessarily disagree that FE isn't really at a good point right now, but the sheer amount of manufacturer interest and the large amounts of money being funned into the series might actually push the series to its intended goal which is to have the only thing spec to be the chassis and everything internally to be open for manufacturers to play.

Personally, I hope some bits of the car externally is opened up eventually but if I were to pick what is open and what isn't, I would much rather the internal power unit be open. That's where the real engineering is at these days anyway.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by TF110

Because they spend a quarter of their F1 budget (which was $300million in 2009). It's gone up since then, but they spend less than half of what Porsche and Audi did

So that means Toyota supposedly started with a quarter of their F1 budget? How do you know its'c comparing the 2009 (lowest) F1 budget anyway? Also I've heard it was 330 million, not 300.

But anyway, I think no one talks about how Toyota can integrate a lot of costs into its own operations, since they have the facilities. Theoretically there could be an opportunity cost, but at this point we are talking about revenues, not costs.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by bobec

So that means Toyota supposedly started with a quarter of their F1 budget? How do you know its'c comparing the 2009 (lowest) F1 budget anyway? Also I've heard it was 330 million, not 300.

But anyway, I think no one talks about how Toyota can integrate a lot of costs into its own operations, since they have the facilities. Theoretically there could be an opportunity cost, but at this point we are talking about revenues, not costs.

iirc, the phrase was they spend a quarter of what they last spent in f1. And going back to 2009 (their last season), they reduced the budget of the F1 program because of the world financial situation. Then (sadly) quit in 2010. I think it's pretty widely accepted that their budget is in the higher 8 figures.

Next year they shouldn't have to spend all of that towards development so maybe they can save money and continue with their program if things seem on the up for the future. Maybe Porsche will rejoin if the diesel thing doesn't hurt so much and they get full electric? Who knows.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by J Jay

I think Marcus Schurig's interview on MWM promoted the rumour to open secret and at that point it didn't make sense to try and keep a lid on it. I was surprised he and Hindhaugh were so brazen about it, even Goodwin was typically cautious later on in the podcast.

I just caught up with this podcast. For me it was very interesting to learn that Porsche had already designed and built (according to Marcus Schurig) a 2018 car based on the rules that were originally supposed to introduced in 2018. The car supposedly has a new engine (suspected V6) and 10MJ hybrid.
I have a strong suspicion that if the 2020 regs had maintained the same profile as the original 2018 regs, Porsche would still be in the WEC.

I know that this post will immediately trigger the "control costs" advocates, but I also completely agree with the point that was made later in the podcast that cost is not the issue , but rather the slowdown of rate of development by those already participating in the series in order to make it easier to attract new OEM's.

The problem with this, is that Porsche had already made the investment of 2018 and does not have the time to slow down its development due to what it perceives as the very near future for drive train electrification.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

The problem with this, is that Porsche had already made the investment of 2018 and does not have the time to slow down its development due to what it perceives as the very near future for drive train electrification.

Yet they still have time to wait until 2019-20 which is the season they join Formula E, and its open development is going to remain limited to electric motor, inverter, gearbox and cooling at least until 2020-21 which is when the next 3 year homologation period ends.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by deggis

Yet they still have time to wait until 2019-20 which is the season they join Formula E, and its open development is going to remain limited to electric motor, inverter, gearbox and cooling at least until 2020-21 which is when the next 3 year homologation period ends.

Yes, but the development starts before the 2019/2020 season

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Yes, but the development starts before the 2019/2020 season

How much development time the 919 had? 1-2 years?

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

How much development time the 919 had? 1-2 years?

A little different as Porsche needed to build up the LMP team and infrastructure from scratch. They now have the entire team intact and the basic infrastructure is in place.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Pretty much agreed. And I felt that there were cracks in the facade as early as 2014. I hoped for the best, and it was good while it lasted, but it wasn't meant to last.

Probably the peek of the LMP1 diesel/hybrid era is probably the first half of 2015 I imagine. The Nissan hype was great and it was a great looking car. But the first crack was when we realized that their hybrid system was a complete failure and the car sputtered to having the team shut down. The fleet sunk one ship at a time per year from there.

2015: Nissan
2016: Audi
2017: Porsche
Toyota: TBD

This year's Porsche 919 both in terms of the car and the livery was by far the best looking 919. This is the version of the car I will remember fondly for sure.

[Sodemo]

To be honest, I thought the whole Nissan LMP1 thing looked odd from the outset. A lot of baffling decisions throughout.

Someone should write a book on this.