Super5000 Series Is Go??

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The F3-spec front wing seems too narrow, I wonder if it already makes the required downforce, or if there a chance to return to the wider front wing of the FT5000?

I recall seeing mention, though my mind may be playing tricks on me, that they didn't want to change the car's aero too much as the increased speeds over the base design would provide the levels of downforce they were after - they're not going for super-sticky ultra-downforce or anything.


For the sake of comparison, here's a photo of the original car from a similar(as close as I could find) angle to that photo;
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Df-udpbUcAIlkYA.jpg (sorry, image embed won't work on this link)

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by spook

Are they 13" diameter rims on the front and 15" diameter on the rear ?.

Thanks for reminding me. I completely forgot to post this back when I first had time to look it up, but a while after my last post on the matter I finally had some time to bother digging up the FIA F3 specs(relevant to the original chassis) to try and shed some light on what was meant, as the exact same thought about diameter had crossed my head after my last post on the matter. So here's what I learned.

Standard F3 spec for wheels are a maximum width of 295mm, or 11.6 inches. Diameter is 330mm +/- 2.5mm, or roundabout 13 inches.

So it looks like you hit the nail on the head, with 13 being EXACTLY in the diameter of the technical specs the original car had to conform to, even though they look almost indistinguishable.

As for width, it looks like they're retaining the standard width for the fronts. I've not been able to find any direct information on the width of the new rear tires but they've made clear from the start that they'd be much wider, and they most definitely are.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I'm wondering why the choice to run 13" front wheels, when the rears are 15"?

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I believe those are TIRE size differences, actually, not WHEEL size. All renderings show the actual wheels being of similar size.

Originally Posted by spook

Are they 13" diameter rims on the front and 15" diameter on the rear ?.

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I've not been able to find any direct information on the width of the new rear tires but they've made clear from the start that they'd be much wider, and they most definitely are.

My info about 15" rear tyres is from here:

Giti's
latest development for Australia.
405/680-15 rear tyres
290/570-13 front tyres

[width/overall diameter - rim diameter]
http://motorsport-tyres-victoria.com...res/4584092964



It's possible the distributor has made a mistake about the rear tyre size and they may be actually 13" tyres.

For reference, 1980's F1 cars use 370/660-13 rear tyres while classic CART/Champcars use 350/720-15 rear tyres. 2018 F1 cars use 405/670-13 rear tyres.

PS. The original wider front wing looked better IMO...

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

My info about 15" rear tyres is from here:

PS. The original wider front wing looked better IMO...

Different car, though. It simply may not work on the chosen car... And may even have looked pretty bad. Yeah, that wing looks great on the car that was built for it, and surely functions well with it, but one should never expect something to look as good/bad or perform as effectively on a different car.

[FormulaFox]

Schedule was released a couple days ago, and we completely ignored it in favor of all our talk about the chassis: https://www.motorsport.com/us/openwh...edule/3216689/

In summary, S5000 will NOT run alongside Supercars in 2019, it will headline Shannon's Nationals events.

While it's a small schedule, I think it makes sense. It gives them until May to sell a decent amount of cars, and the short debut season will minimize the starting costs for the teams. Hopefully it can do well enough that it won't need to be restricted to these events long-term.

[venturi]

Video of the S5000 on the Newcastle street circuit - https://www.supercars.com/videos/sup...-in-newcastle/

[FormulaFox]

I like the sound, I like the look.... But I hope that Murphy wasn't pushing it to the limit in that video because it looked a bit sluggish - didn't look any faster than the F3 Americas car, which if my eyes aren't playing tricks on me would be a big worry.


That said, Murphy really liked the thing; https://racer.com/2018/11/23/nzs-mur...fter-test-run/

[JAFA851]

Pretty sure he wasn't pushing the car. He's driven a real F5000 car before ( McRae GM1 ), and gave it a proper flogging.

They got the sound right, but the car looks horrible with the curved rear wing, and even worse the front wing being fully inside the front track width. Looks like a little toy F4 car they put wider suspension arms on but didn't change the wing. Put a proper full width front wing on it and it'll probably be fine.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by JAFA851

Looks like a little toy F4 car they put wider suspension arms on but didn't change the wing. Put a proper full width front wing on it and it'll probably be fine.

You're not far off. As I'll remind everyone yet again, this IS a converted F3 design. They didn't change the wings(except the mounting and endplates of the rear wing) because they weren't pursuing a high-downforce car - the increased power and wider tires should allow the existing wings to be sufficient.

[venturi]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

You're not far off. As I'll remind everyone yet again, this IS a converted F3 design. They didn't change the wings(except the mounting and endplates of the rear wing) because they weren't pursuing a high-downforce car - the increased power and wider tires should allow the existing wings to be sufficient.

The rear diffuser and beam wing have also both been removed from the S5000 in changes from the F3 car, there will be significantly less downforce on the rear without those two elements.

Will be interesting to see if that translates in to better racing with less downforce but more mechanical grip from the larger tyres.

[GTRMagic]

On track at Newcastle, it has a volume of noise, but no real intentional racing bark.
Needs a strong growl to give it presence...

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by venturi

The rear diffuser and beam wing have also both been removed from the S5000 in changes from the F3 car, there will be significantly less downforce on the rear without those two elements.

I think the diffuser is gone more due to issues fitting the engine than anything else. There wasn't much of a diffuser on the original car to begin with, and with fatter rear tires on I doubt it makes any real difference to rear end grip - the new tires are probably providing more grip than was lost.

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

On track at Newcastle, it has a volume of noise, but no real intentional racing bark.
Needs a strong growl to give it presence...

Given that it probably isn't being pushed to the limit, I wouldn't really assume you've heard what it will sound like in competition just yet.

It's supposed to be run three times over the weekend, and I hope the last run they DO push to the limit.

[venturi]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I think the diffuser is gone more due to issues fitting the engine than anything else. There wasn't much of a diffuser on the original car to begin with, and with fatter rear tires on I doubt it makes any real difference to rear end grip - the new tires are probably providing more grip than was lost.

I agree the diffuser wouldn't fit with the larger engine, it is quite big though on the F3 - https://imgur.com/a/9QtwCEJ

[peebee2]

Smaller thanks the standard full tunnels on the current Dallara F3.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I like the sound, I like the look.... But I hope that Murphy wasn't pushing it to the limit in that video because it looked a bit sluggish - didn't look any faster than the F3 Americas car, which if my eyes aren't playing tricks on me would be a big worry.

Perhaps they should put more downforce on it to alleviate the criticisms of slow corner speed. Downforce is free lap time after all! For a handful of kilograms of moderately well designed carbon fibre do-dads you can go bulk seconds a lap faster (refer time attack)...

At the moment the car is not only slower than GP2 but likely slower than GP3 as well, and possibly slower than a well driven 240hp/500kg "classic" F3..

Then again V8 Supercars are very slow and no one cares.

Go figure, maybe it doesn't matter and commerical and not technical considerations is what they should concern themselves with...

Perhaps lapping Albert Park (once they are invited there) around 20 seconds a lap slower than an F1 car is of no consequence?

[Armco Bender]

I want cars that slide sideways around the corners like real racing cars used too.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Then again V8 Supercars are very slow and no one cares.

Hmm a couple of seconds a lap slower at Bathurst than an unrestricted and unballasted R8 on sticky tyres isn't what I would call "very slow".

[Umai Naa]

Would've been closer to 5 seconds slower, if the planets aligned for the Audi.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Would've been closer to 5 seconds slower, if the planets aligned for the Audi.

if my Auntie had balls she'd be me uncle.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

I want cars that slide sideways around the corners like real racing cars used too.

Replacing the radial tyres with cross plies that operate at 1970s slip angles might go some way towards that!

(Avon have a great selection of cross plies for historic racing! Unfortunately, the S5000 is probably running a radial tyre which will reduce slip angles. 1980s and 1990s F1 cars run historic events on more modern *radial* Avon tyres that are correct for period, so unfortunately they don't drift the way 70s F1 and F5000 do.)

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Hmm a couple of seconds a lap slower at Bathurst than an unrestricted and unballasted R8 on sticky tyres isn't what I would call "very slow".

Compared to a GP2 bespoke racing car, either tin top is "very slow" right? And the GP2 itself is already 7-10 seconds per lap slower than the benchmark F1 car.

Obviously it starts from the ground up, with the GP2 and S5000 being able to sit the driver and engine directly in the most optimal place... On the floor. Then you add in how the GP2’s V8 makes more power than the Audi's production V10, whilst the V8 racing engine weighs around 80-100kg less than the production V10 and so on, and so on...

On the otherhand, exposed rotating wheels causes immense drag.

Anyway, I am hopeful for S5000 to embraced as Australia's Indycar. I think they need to be fast to achieve that, which IMO would mean downforce and lightweight racing engines, a la GP2 but obviously that would push the running cost per car into the level of the top VA Supercars entries.

Hopefully the S5000 succeeds and doesnt just become an obscure Formula Libre...

[V8 Fireworks]

For reference, F2 run a stonking great big diffuser (as below) and they are STILL 10 seconds a lap slower than F1. So one might be concerned that the S5000 might be barely any faster than a 2L, lightweight, classic F3 car..



Furthermore, even with so much downforce, F2 cars can still race very well. I don't think it is necessary to assume downforce will produce poor racing.

[JAFA851]

Downforce doesn't produce poor racing, aero wash does. So they just need to design a more aero for it that doesn't put out bad aero wash. But that'd require Supercars spending time and money and hiring outside experts to get it done properly, which will never happen. It's all looking a bit half-arsed, which won't end well.

[JAFA851]

Probably the worst track on the calender to have it do some laps. What were they thinking???

[GTRMagic]

Hand timed... Mr Tander did 2 flyers this morning.. and managed a best of a 1.14..

Definitely lifted off super early for turn 1, and others. And made it make that growl that was missing yesterday.