[Race] 2014 German Grand Prix

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by 321Go

A protest was on the cards.

I agree with Horner. Mercedes should not have been allowed to change disc manufacturers on Hamilton's car.

Disks are clearly the same size, width, weight and were presumably changed for safety reasons. Are you saying they should have run with the original disks in the knowledge that they were possibly defective? Or just that had they changed, they should have started from the pitlane?

Note, they also did the same on NR's car didn't they?

As for setting a precedent, I'm still trying to think of another part of the car where the same switch could be done (size weight different manufacturer etc). Only thing so far comer to mind is brake pads.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

There was a small crowd at the German GP why some people are asking. There was a truck GP at the Nurburgring on the same day that got about 100,000 spectators. If a German driver embrioled in a battle for the championship in a German car what does it take to get the people in or were ticket prices too high?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns28534.html

between that and the Lauda 5 min til 12 doomsday reference there certainly are several issues keeping people away from F1...no mention however about the trial though.

i dont know how much local (German) coverage it receives but given what F1 charges and how long these court cases are being dragged out for it shouldnt really be a surprise that families dont want to fork over several hundred dollars per person just to attend an F1 event.

anyways i didnt get to see and race build up...was BE there and if so any hard questions asked of him?

[Tucky]

I bet if an F1 journalist tried to ask BE a tough question they'd mysteriously find their pit pass tickets to future grand prixs void!

I also liked in the article how BE and Seiler argued that the tickets aren't too high because "the prices all over the F1 calendar are similar". Here's a crazy theory; if they're all the same, maybe they're all too high

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Disks are clearly the same size, width, weight and were presumably changed for safety reasons. Are you saying they should have run with the original disks in the knowledge that they were possibly defective? Or just that had they changed, they should have started from the pitlane?

Note, they also did the same on NR's car didn't they?

As for setting a precedent, I'm still trying to think of another part of the car where the same switch could be done (size weight different manufacturer etc). Only thing so far comer to mind is brake pads.

Yes the parameters you mentioned are the same, but that wouldn't change the fact that it's an outright infringement towards Parc Ferme rules. The principles of actual benefit doesn't apply here.
Besides, it's highly dubious that Merc doesn't get a performance advantage here simply because the brake wear is different and by changing brakes on both cars, they are using much newer ones than the rest of the field, that's a massive boost.
Further more, if the brake pads are closely integrated into MGU-K, that's an infringement towards PU regulations as well.
So I'm really suprised at FIA being so tolerant to the Merc GP. Anyway, Caterham falls out of 107% multiple times yet they are still allowed to race, so I guess the sporting regulations of F1 is pretty much piece of 'shoot' now.

[Sodemo]

Maybe the fact that Germany has a very strong national Motorsport scene outside f1 counts against it? I imagine a dtm race is a lot cheaper to attend than the f1 race?

[Knowlesy]

Anything is cheaper than the GP in Germany.

Can probably get a season ticket at Bayern Munich for the price of a weekend pass.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

These bloody Saubers threaten to turn these races on their heads!

Nah, just Sutil. Sell-by date way, way passed.......

[Articus]

What was with the ugly podium trophies again... Seems like anytime Santander is involved, ugly trophies are required.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Articus

What was with the ugly podium trophies again... Seems like anytime Santander is involved, ugly trophies are required.

At leat they didn't break, like they did at Silverstone, so a bit of an improvement, .

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

There was a small crowd at the German GP why some people are asking. There was a truck GP at the Nurburgring on the same day that got about 100,000 spectators. If a German driver embrioled in a battle for the championship in a German car what does it take to get the people in or were ticket prices too high?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns28534.html

It wasn't ticket prices as you could get them for 77 euros off.

[321Go]

[321Go]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Are you saying they should have run with the original disks in the knowledge that they were possibly defective? Or just that had they changed, they should have started from the pitlane?

Note, they also did the same on NR's car didn't they?

I'm saying Lewis should have started from pitlane. Mercedes changed his front disc manufacturer. IMO, that's a breach of the regulations. And yes, Rosberg also changed his brake disc material post qualifying in parc fermé conditions.

Lewis Hamilton:

• Brembo fronts discs (changed to Carbon Industrie post qualifying)
• Brembo rear discs (changed to older spec Brembo post qualifying)
• Brembo calipers all round (unchanged entire w'end)

Nico Rosberg:

• Carbon Industrie front discs (unchanged entire w'end)
• Brembo rear discs (changed to older spec Brembo post qualifying)
• Brembo calipers all round (unchanged entire w'end)

Rosberg's brakes were also changed to different spec rear discs. That is also a bit of a contentious issue IMO. You should not be allowed to change to an older or a newer spec item IMO. If it's safety related, one should have to prove that the particular part in question is dangerous. It was the front disc that failed, not the rear.

But changing disc manufacturers on Hamilton's car is definitely a beach of the regulations IMO. It's a totally different manufacturer. By the precedent set, one should be allowed to change a front or rear wing to a different spec post qualifying. What next? Change an engine, a gearbox or a turbo to a different manufacturer mid season because it's a safety threat to the drivers?? The Renault powered teams would have a case after the fires of Kobayashi and Kvyat during the w'end. Exaggerated yes. But...

[chillibowl]

with respect to the cheap ticket prices being brought up and just speaking for the Montreal race (which is at the low end also on that pic) but General admissions does not provide much in the way of quality viewing places and is not a fun experience and the cheapest grandstand is not very big and sells out fast.

i dont know about other tracks but is suspect like Montreal only a minority of seats are available or worthwhile at those lower prices.

seats with access to a proper entry/exit to a corner or hairpin, with a view of the tv screens, near the start/finish (so basically anywhere decent to sit) is costing a lot more. a decent grandstand you are looking at Can$400-500 per person...now times that by 4 for a family of 4 and tell me how cheap it is again.

im also finding it amusing about the other reasons coming out for the lack of attendance, ranging from German reunification and Schumi, Vettel being a private person, world cup hangover...all mentioned and touted by F1 players and journos who have never had to buy a ticket.

talk about blind leading the blind imo.

[garcon]

Not at all surprised to see Silverstone the most expensive standard entry ticket. One reason I haven't been back for 20 years nearly and have been to 2 or 3 others instead.

As a Brit, why would you do the British Grand Prix when Spa including a weekend in Brussels is cheaper?

[Teretonga]

If they had been denied permission to do the work on the cars and Hamilton or Rosberg had had a brake related incident that involved a serious injury (Schumacher serious) can you imagine what the legal liability would have been like?
If other teams had protested and a serious incident occurred the blowback on the protesting teams could have done damage to their image and sponsors image.
as for the responsibility on the FIA as regulator.....

You only have to read some of the comments regarding Flight MH17 on this forum to know how hysterical and unreasonable the thinking of some people can be.

No one would want the responsibility for an incident caused by over-regulation laid at their feet.

Rules that are useful for pragmatic purposes are good but when the are simply officious nonsense and not pragmatic then everything is a little more difficult.

F1 is way over the top in regulation and this where its a bit ridiculous.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

If they had been denied permission to do the work on the cars and Hamilton or Rosberg had had a brake related incident that involved a serious injury (Schumacher serious) can you imagine what the legal liability would have been like?
If other teams had protested and a serious incident occurred the blowback on the protesting teams could have done damage to their image and sponsors image.
as for the responsibility on the FIA as regulator.....

You only have to read some of the comments regarding Flight MH17 on this forum to know how hysterical and unreasonable the thinking of some people can be.

No one would want the responsibility for an incident caused by over-regulation laid at their feet.

Rules that are useful for pragmatic purposes are good but when the are simply officious nonsense and not pragmatic then everything is a little more difficult.

F1 is way over the top in regulation and this where its a bit ridiculous.

Nobody is suggesting they should have been prevented from making the changes, simply that having made them they should have started from the pit lane. You would like to think that no team would send a driver to the grid, even the front of the grid, with a known dangerous fault when they could fix it and start from pit lane.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

Nobody is suggesting they should have been prevented from making the changes, simply that having made them they should have started from the pit lane. You would like to think that no team would send a driver to the grid, even the front of the grid, with a known dangerous fault when they could fix it and start from pit lane.

That is where we differ.

I don't think they should have had to start from the pit lane and that some of the 'park ferme' rules are basically a nonsense, as are the rules on what you can or cant do in lots of other situations.

I don't think its an issue that should force someone to start from the pit lane.
My point is more about the sport being over regulated that creates this sort of thinking.

It's just over regulated and far too complicated. Maybe that's why 100,000 people went to the truck racing at the Nurburgring instead.

[jedrinck]

About ticket prices for the Hockenheim GP, I bought a ticket for my father for sunday only, regular grandstand in the Motodrom without any extras. The price was 295 Euros plus a 17 Euros "service fee". The service being that you get the tickets in the mail.

I think F1 has recently lost a lot of popularity here, it is seen as an organisation at least on par with FIFA in terms of greed and corruption, see the BE trial.

[TheNo1F1Fan]

Magnussen is "blameless" for Massa's crash:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/07/2...s-massa-crash/
...and concluded!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

Nobody is suggesting they should have been prevented from making the changes, simply that having made them they should have started from the pit lane. You would like to think that no team would send a driver to the grid, even the front of the grid, with a known dangerous fault when they could fix it and start from pit lane.

This would be what the rules say.

I think that their is a leeway relating to safety equipment to try and prevent the teams running doubtful equipment, say on Rosberg's car to maintain its grid position! Dumb but foreseeable!

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

That is where we differ.

I don't think they should have had to start from the pit lane and that some of the 'park ferme' rules are basically a nonsense, as are the rules on what you can or cant do in lots of other situations.

I don't think its an issue that should force someone to start from the pit lane.
My point is more about the sport being over regulated that creates this sort of thinking.

It's just over regulated and far too complicated. Maybe that's why 100,000 people went to the truck racing at the Nurburgring instead.

I don't think we differ very much at all. My point is that the rules are there and should have been applied, if yours is that the parc ferme rules shouldn't say that I couldn't disagree.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

I don't think we differ very much at all. My point is that the rules are there and should have been applied, if yours is that the parc ferme rules shouldn't say that I couldn't disagree.

Is it a matter of applying the rules or is it interpreting the rules differently?
I don't know because I am not looking up the rule myself but if it is over whether or not the cars should have been worked on or if there was a specification change it needs to be interpreted in conjunction with all the rules applying to the specific situation, park ferme etc.

If they asked for permission to do it and it was granted then no one has an argument against it, or certainly not against the team. If there was within the situation a discretionary element for the officials to make a decision in the circumstance and that was done then there is no argument against it.

If they were sent to the back of the grid rather then starting from the pit lane and the rules gave the stewards/race director that discretion then the rule has been applied.

If people are so wound up they want the regulations followed to a letter that denies the stewards from exercising discretion in the interests of safety or fair competition then the whole sport is out of kilter.

[Teretonga]

I looked at the rule and part of it says this:

"Any work not listed above may only be undertaken with the approval of the FIA technical delegate
following a written request from the team concerned. It must be clear that any replacement part a team wishes to fit is similar in mass, inertia and function to the original. Any parts removed will be retained by the FIA.
However, if a team wishes to change a part during the qualifying session and/or on the grid before the start of the race, this may be done without first seeking the permission of the technical delegate, provided it is reasonable for the relevant team to believe permission would be given if there was time to ask and the broken or damaged part remains in full view of the scrutineer assigned to the car at all times."

It also says this:
"34.4 Within three and a half hours of the end of the qualifying practice session all cars used during the session (or which were intended for use but failed to leave the pit lane) must be covered and ready for FIA seals to be applied in order to ensure that they remain secure until the following day.
For marketing purposes this deadline may be extended for one car from each competitor for a maximum of two hours by prior arrangement with the FIA technical delegate"

So if they had permission to work on the cars after qualifying and official discretion was applied that is fine.
If Hamilton started from the back of the grid rather than pit lane and that had official discretion that too is fine.

One could argue that starting from pit lane was an advantage because there would be less chance of being involved in someone else's start line accident...

[chillibowl]

some of Monisa Kaltenborn's thoughts on the low turn out. i really appreciate that she sees the problem as one coming from within F1 and not the results of external factors.

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/...16817--f1.html

"Sometimes I think we are just sitting there and watching. We know what is going to happen and, it is like a lame duck sitting there and waiting to be shot at."

"If we cannot keep or even reach out to our fans and connect to our people here [in Europe], how should we manage to get new fans where there is not motorsport heritage or history?"

[JoestForEver]

So how to make it unpredictable? Success ballast?