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Old 13 Jun 2011, 11:14 (Ref:2897953)   #26
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I agree that they have to do something about it. The safety car laps isn't quite a show.
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 11:21 (Ref:2897965)   #27
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Deeper treads on the tyres, and allow them to change their set ups to wet would be a logical thing to do. Ridiculous they're not allowed to.
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 11:36 (Ref:2897982)   #28
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It wouldn't be so bad if it was wasn't for the precedent that has been set over x number of years previously. Bringing out the safety car used to be the exception when things got REALLY bad, and even then it was for the majority of cases when cars were aquaplaning off the road rather than being down to visibility. Now it seems to be the rule. Drivers dealt with spray in the past so why not now?

The red flag was of course justified once the rain got as bad as it did, but starting the under the safety car and staying out as long as it did after the restart was just ludicrous. They were ready for inters within a couple of laps of the safety car coming in after the restart! Something is wrong here.
I've raced in conditions similar - I couldn't see a damn thing. Seeing a car drive off the side of the track as he goes past you because he cannot actually see the track is something to be seen to be believed....at Canada that woudl be quite dangerous.
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 11:55 (Ref:2897992)   #29
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The worlds fastest and most expensive cars and they still haven't figured out how these windscreen wiper doo-dads work
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 12:20 (Ref:2898013)   #30
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The race itself, the sprint after the red flag was great viewing.

Nobody will be able to convince me that a safety car start was required. Any club racer in the UK with more than a season's experience would have started in worse than that. It was truly pathetic.

And if "visibility" was an issue we'd never have any single seater races in the rain at all, as anyone who's tried it will testify.

The fact of the matter is it appears that the very last person on F1's priority list is the spectator or viewer, the consumer. And that has to change.
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 12:30 (Ref:2898019)   #31
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I said this after Korea last year. I wish i'd wrote an article on it, now.

My title for it was going to be exactly the title of this topic!

Terrible idea to let the drivers have a say in it. I know we'll talk about safety being priority etc, but this is also a sport, and the sport needs someone who's in charge and tells them to get on with it. We no longer have that. The drivers now decide. You can't seriously tell me that that's a good enough rule? How can politics not come in to their decisions?

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Old 13 Jun 2011, 12:55 (Ref:2898034)   #32
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At least two drivers, Button & Alonso have said they wanted to start the race on intermediates. It's a tough call considering how quickly the rain in the beginning went from bad to worse. I have a feeling both KB & FA would have brought out a safety car on inters in that rain but I'm not calling Charlie a psychic on the wet tyre/SC call.

The other whinge I heard was the lack of experience the drivers have on the Pirelli wets/inters at race pace. I have a great idea to resolve that issue...

...let 'em race in the wet!
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 12:56 (Ref:2898035)   #33
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I have sympathy for the problems of racing in the rain because, like a number of people here, I've done it, and it's horrible. But the rain never stopped me going out and doing it.

If the FIA determines that racing in the wet (as opposed to "damp") is a bad idea, I couldn't disagree. But then they need to develop a whole new set of procedures for doing it. Immediate red flag when the rain comes down, don't fanny around with the safety car (in fact get rid of the safety car in ALL circumstances), come back on Monday if necessary.

Asking the drivers is a bad idea. They all have their own agenda and their opinions are 99% down to getting an advantage for themselves and 1% down to safety. If they think the conditions are too bad, they can do like Niki Lauda did in Japan 1976; park it.
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 12:56 (Ref:2898037)   #34
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Fair enough, when the rain really came down then a red flag was inevitable. However when they chose to restart it the safety car was out for 8 laps? Not sure, it might have been more, but quite frankly, that track was ready to go after 1 lap...

If they aren't going to run in wet conditions why bother to have full wet tyres?
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 12:56 (Ref:2898039)   #35
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Spot on, mate.

I'm all for health and safety, but i'm also all for people earning their money in their job. By not letting them do their job, they're not really properly earning their money, are they?

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Old 13 Jun 2011, 12:57 (Ref:2898041)   #36
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Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist View Post

Asking the drivers is a bad idea. They all have their own agenda and their opinions are 99% down to getting an advantage for themselves and 1% down to safety. If they think the conditions are too bad, they can do like Niki Lauda did in Japan 1976; park it.
What a valid point. Why can't they just tell the driver to park it up if they feel it's undrivable? If it's undrivable, why are you still out on track?

Great point.

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Old 13 Jun 2011, 13:02 (Ref:2898044)   #37
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The middle race stopage was of course justified. They are cars not boats.

That's it though. They shouldn't have started it under the safety car and when it was right to stop they where too sluggish to restart it. H&S gone mad. The boys earn big and we are entitled to see them take some risks.
Fittipaldi is a class act but he should be careful and not apply his prolonged and leisurely eating habits to race restarts.
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 13:02 (Ref:2898045)   #38
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I feel tempted to compare the conditions between Montreal and Silverstone yesterday.
Hats off to the riders at Silverstone, really
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 13:08 (Ref:2898049)   #39
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Plenty of run off at Silverstone, and bikes that were set up for the wet. If they'd been running dry set up the race result would have been down to who got furthest round the first lap.
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Old 13 Jun 2011, 13:12 (Ref:2898053)   #40
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Still plenty of balls racing with just the half of ground contact and without safety cells compared to that Montreal race.
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Old 14 Jun 2011, 18:04 (Ref:2898965)   #41
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F1 has run in pretty horrific conditions in the era of aerodynamics, so I'm not sure what their excuse here really is. Spa 1989 and 1998 definitely come to mind. And though not F1, Le Mans 1992 and 2001 got VERY wet, and those guys still raced, and while those cars do have wipers, wipers do NOT alleviate the visibility issue with spray hanging in the air.

Also, I think the first real chink in this whole chain came when they ran the first almost 30 laps of the 2007 Japanese GP at Fuji behind the Safety Car. And when one of the cars pitted, and then rushed back around to the pack, it was clear that they could have run at least 30-40 seconds a lap faster on their own than behind the Safety Car, even in those conditions.
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Old 14 Jun 2011, 21:06 (Ref:2899078)   #42
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Im going to have to agree with Charlie on this one. I actually walked the track and there isnt much room on the straights and very little runoff. There would have been more deployment of the safety car with cars sliding around or worse yet crashing into each other. Canada is a special case so it was justified. I have to applaud the Canadians for waiting in the grand stands for more than Two hours in the pouring rain. Fortunately they were rewarded with a great race.
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Old 14 Jun 2011, 21:11 (Ref:2899079)   #43
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I don't agree that the race director has the "responsability for the safety of the drivers". Bull****! That responsability is for the drivers themselves and their teams and no one else. Period. They are the ones who should judge if they should continue, what pace to do so, etc. If they judge "undrivable", then go to the pits and stop. Don't drive. I'm pretty sure someone will be brave enough to continue and snatch the win.

It's totally unfair to those drivers who may have an advantage in wet weather driving. It's bad enough that because of the way they make the calendar nowadays, we only have two, max three wet races per season.

Just like USA 05. don't force the ones who are not afraid to race (or put themselves in a position to do be able to, by not having the car so close to the ground, or by being carefull/smart or just by being damn good) to lose their oportunity.. And if some cars go to the barriers or someone gets hurt, it was still his choice, his responsability. Disgusting.
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Old 14 Jun 2011, 21:24 (Ref:2899085)   #44
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The problem with asking the drivers is that some will fancy the conditions and some won't. Look at Donington '93. Prost probably wouldn't have fancied starting in those conditions, and had they listened to him, we'd never have seen such a magical performance from Senna.
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Old 15 Jun 2011, 02:52 (Ref:2899183)   #45
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I'm more disgusted with the Stewards investigating every passing manouver they deem dangerous or silly. Why can't the drivers just race without worrying if they will get penalized. There has always been silly passing in the past. Shlesser taking out Senna and Salazar taking out Piquet come to mind but so what it's just part of racing.
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Old 15 Jun 2011, 03:29 (Ref:2899188)   #46
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I don't agree that the race director has the "responsability for the safety of the drivers". Bull****! That responsability is for the drivers themselves and their teams and no one else. Period. They are the ones who should judge if they should continue, what pace to do so, etc. If they judge "undrivable", then go to the pits and stop. Don't drive. I'm pretty sure someone will be brave enough to continue and snatch the win.

It's totally unfair to those drivers who may have an advantage in wet weather driving. It's bad enough that because of the way they make the calendar nowadays, we only have two, max three wet races per season.

Just like USA 05. don't force the ones who are not afraid to race (or put themselves in a position to do be able to, by not having the car so close to the ground, or by being carefull/smart or just by being damn good) to lose their oportunity.. And if some cars go to the barriers or someone gets hurt, it was still his choice, his responsability. Disgusting.
In the current "nanny state" conditions that exist today, it is alsways someone elses responsibility.
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Old 15 Jun 2011, 04:19 (Ref:2899194)   #47
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I'm more disgusted with the Stewards investigating every passing manouver they deem dangerous or silly. Why can't the drivers just race without worrying if they will get penalized. There has always been silly passing in the past. Shlesser taking out Senna and Salazar taking out Piquet come to mind but so what it's just part of racing.
I don't know much about running a race meeting and if someone wants to put me straight please do so. However my understanding is that if an incident is reported to the stewards they are obliged to investigate it so they don't really get to decide how many investigations there are. Perhaps they should be judged (on this occasion) by the vast majority of the incidents being found to be racing incidents and no penalty issued.
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Old 15 Jun 2011, 06:56 (Ref:2899230)   #48
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I'm more disgusted with the Stewards investigating every passing manouver they deem dangerous or silly. Why can't the drivers just race without worrying if they will get penalized. There has always been silly passing in the past. Shlesser taking out Senna and Salazar taking out Piquet come to mind but so what it's just part of racing.
Well, in the "old days", usually the circuit itself served the immediate penalty. With the parking lot centers of today it becomes different. A crasher like Hamilton would have had to park his car more often than he gets away with it today. That said, there are maybe 3 or 4 circuits only in the schedule these days that still brutally penalize mistakes, the most recent two included.
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Old 15 Jun 2011, 07:16 (Ref:2899234)   #49
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Im going to have to agree with Charlie on this one. I actually walked the track and there isnt much room on the straights and very little runoff. There would have been more deployment of the safety car with cars sliding around or worse yet crashing into each other. Canada is a special case so it was justified. I have to applaud the Canadians for waiting in the grand stands for more than Two hours in the pouring rain. Fortunately they were rewarded with a great race.
We were rewarded with a trophy dash, not a proper Grand Prix. Yes it was exciting at the end, but it was effectively stage managed and barely more than half the race distance was proper racing.

If a track is not suitable to be raced on in the rain, be it due to track surface, drainage, walls too close (as is the example you use), then surely it is not suitable to host a Grand Prix.

Its as if Formula One has gone all 'old American racing' by not racing in the rain anymore...

As mentioned by others, they seem to look for any excuse to put the safety car out these days, rather than have a very good reason for it...
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Old 15 Jun 2011, 08:54 (Ref:2899295)   #50
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Plenty of run off at Silverstone, and bikes that were set up for the wet. If they'd been running dry set up the race result would have been down to who got furthest round the first lap.
I think this is a very valid point and perhaps is an issue with the current parc ferme rules. Cars are now having to effectively race with dry setups in the rain. It's slightly different to days gone by when they had the cars in bits practically after every session!

Perhaps they should revisit the rules and maybe look at allowing wet setups to be applied if a race is declared a wet race. Then it's up to the teams to decide how far to go if conditions are changeable. It would add an element to the strategy and maybe actually make the cars drivable in the rain.
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