Pre war Grand Prix

[angst]

I'm very interested in Grand Prix history, and am particularly interested in the twenties and thirties. Does anybody know where I can get information on some of the less known cars from the twenties, in particular
Elizalde
OM 865
Itala
Roland-Pillain
Diatto
Chiribiri
Heim
Flatirons
Alvis
I know some of these cars may not have been completed, but is there info on them anyway (blueprints etc.)?
Info on the drivers of the time would also be welcome..

[TimD]

There's a 1908 GP Itala which was racing with the VSCC right up to a few years ago. It, or its sister car, is now in the National Motor Museum, Beaulieu. I said "Hi" to it a couple of weeks ago.

Can you be specific as to the entry you have found for "Flatiron"? I'm guessing that it may be a 1926/7 British GP entry for JG Parry Thomas. If so, then it's a low-slung Brooklands special built on a Leyland chassis, which was christened the "Flatiron". If it seems to be something else, I'd better put my thinking cap on.

When I get my archives computer back from the works, I'll be able to check out more in the way of drivers. Certainly I can think of race results featuring all of the marques you list with the exception of Elizalde.

[angst]

Spanish GP 1923 - 3rd Alfonso Carreras - Elizalde 511
5th Jose Feliu - Elizalde 511
so I imagine they are Spanish.
(info from F1 Homepage of rsults and history - http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/grange/54/index.html
But as I say, I'd be very grateful for any info you could furnish me with.Thanks.

[jarama]

HI, angst, hope this can help you:

II Gran Premi de la Penya Rhin
Circuit de Vilafranca
11-5-1922
'Voiturettes' up to 2000 cc.
3rd., Ramassoto, Chiribiri
6th., José Feliu, Elizalde
FL, Amedeo 'Deo' Chiribiri, Chiribiri, 7'52"8, 112'6 kmh

III G.P. de la Penya Rhin
Circuit de Vilafranca
10-21-1923
Up to 1500 cc./425 kg.min.
4th., Fernando de Vizcaya, Elizalde
5th., Tazio Nuvolari, Chiribiri
6th., José Feliu, Elizalde
7th., Patricio de Satrústegui, Elizalde

II Gran Premio de España
Autódrom Sitges-Terramar
11-4-1923
'Voiturettes' up to 1500 cc.
4th., Tazio Nuvolari, Chiribiri

[angst]

Great - where did you get the results from?

[jarama]

I'm from Barcelona, and have a book covering the entire history of automobile racing and rallying in Catalunya over the past century.

The book is entittled "Història de l'automobilisme a Catalunya", written by Javier del Arco and edited by Editorial Planeta / Reial Automòbil Club de Catalunya.

Don't think you can find it, if not in Spain, but is a very complete book on his subject.

[angst]

In response to Tim. I do know that it had something to do with Parry Thomas so I should imagine this would be the same car. I was under the impression that this was one of the cars that had never been completed, like the Itala Tipo 15 and Fiat 415. I believe the Alvis took part in some races at Brooklands but was never actually entered in a Grand Prix.

[Gerard]

Speaking of Parry Thomas, isn't he the guy who bought one of Count Zborowski's Chitty Chitty Bang Bang cars, called the Higham Special?
I remember a story about him. I believe he called the car 'Babs' although it was usually entered as the 'Thomas Special.'
He did a Land Speed Record attempt in 1927 at Pendine or Penzine (can't remember), in which he crashed the car and died.
They buried Thomas in Byfleet, but they also burried the car at the beach near where he had crashed.
In 1969 someone dug it up. The car was restored which took 2 years and placed in a museum. I don't know which museum though. Is this story true?

[angst]

This is true, though I don't know which museum it's in.
Might be worthwhile looking at
http://www.brooklands.org.uk
I've been briefly looking at this sight recently (great pics of Voisin replica GP car, the first monocoque race car), but there just seems to be so much to look at.

[angst]

Ooops. Voisin is on Goodwood festival of speed, in case you were going to look for it on the Brooklands site.

[jarama]

Hi, angst, a little more stuff:

XIII Targa Florio
4-2-1922
Medio Circuito delle Madonie, 108 km.
12th., Moriondo, Itala (4 cyl./83mm.x130mm.displacement)
(I know the Targa wasn't a G.P., but those days the cars admitted were true G.P.cars and Sports, all mixed up)

European (and 7th.Italian) G.P.
9-4-1927
Autodromo di Monza, 10 km.
2nd., A.Morandi, OM (don't know if was the type 865, or not)

[TimD]

More on Parry Thomas.

The car which became "Babs" was indeed the Higham Special, but the Higham was a completely separate car from the Chitty Bang Bang specials. (Incidentally, it should only be one "Chitty" when referring to a Zborowski car - two "Chitties" when talking about the children's fantasy car from the film.)

Brooklands programmes often referred to regularly attending cars by their given names, such as...

Vauxhall 30/98 "Rouge et Noir II"
Austin 7 "Mrs Jo-Jo"
Austin 40hp "Pobble"
Arrol-Johnston "Guarded Flame"
Lanchester 40hp "Softly-Catch-Monkey"
Thomas-Special "Flatiron"
Lorraine-Dietrich GP "Vieux Charles III"

... so it is entirely appropriate to refer to an entry by the Thomas-Special "Babs".

Parry Thomas' fateful record run did indeed take place at Pendine Sands in Wales. The car crashed and Thomas suffered terrible injuries which killed him instantly. The commonly accepted cause is the failure of a drive chain, which whipped up, and took poor Thomas' head off. Some commentators have suggested that one of the tyres was slashed by a seashell at 170mph, and that the subsequent violent rollover would have just as easily inflicted the wounds.

The car, Parry Thomas' overcoat and hat were thrown into a makeshift pit, and buried in the dunes. The man who subsequently dug her up was a university lecturer in engineering, named Owen Wyn Owen. The restoration took a little more than two years....

The car was a running chassis by 1975, and the replica body was certainly unfinished in 1983. The car was entered for a VSCC race at Silverstone in 1988, but a mechanical malady forced it to withdraw.

I saw "Babs" run just once, at the 1993 Coys Festival. Friends who saw me that day can testify that it is the only time I have broken into a sprint at the sight of a car. None of us had any idea that she would be there, and when I saw the distinctive white tail disappearing behind the BRDC stand, I simply yelled "They've got Babs", and I was off.

And I can tell you, if you've never stood next to a 27-litre, 400bhp Liberty aero engine with open exhausts, when it fires up in its customary incendiary way, then you have never really lived...

Since 1991, because of a protracted dispute between Owen Wyn Owen and the town of Pendine, there has evolved a complicated system of custody for the car. The car resides in the National Museum of Wales, but spends part of its time at the town museum at Pendine, and on special occasions, such as VSCC anniversary meetings, Owen Wyn Owen gathers her out of her hibernation and displays her at race tracks. Sadly, due to a major mechanical malady a few years back, involving a conrod which made an unorthodox bid for freedom, I believe her running days are over. But on the other hand, the Liberty engine was never particularly rare. I'm sure that spares could be sourced from the aviation restoration fraternity.

And then who knows....

[TimD]

Originally posted by jarama
Hi, angst, a little more stuff:

XIII Targa Florio
4-2-1922
Medio Circuito delle Madonie, 108 km.
12th., Moriondo, Itala (4 cyl./83mm.x130mm.displacement)
(I know the Targa wasn't a G.P., but those days the cars admitted were true G.P.cars and Sports, all mixed up)

European (and 7th.Italian) G.P.
9-4-1927
Autodromo di Monza, 10 km.
2nd., A.Morandi, OM (don't know if was the type 865, or not)

Just been checking my references, and can confirm both these results. Antonio Moriondo's Itala was a Type 51. And the OM driven by Morandi was indeed an 865, as indeed was that of Ferdinando Minoia, who finished 4th at Monza.

Just one thing - I have Morandi's first name as Giuseppe.

Hope this helps.

[Gerard]

Yes, it's Giuseppe Morandi.
He also won the Mille Miglia 1927 together with Ferdinando Minoia in an OM 665 Superba.
He came in second in 1929 with Archimede Rosa and third in 1931 with the same co-driver.
He also won the Coppa Poretta in 1929.